Fishing for a new favorite fish

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Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carrie L. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:16 pm

My recent confession that my favorite fish is Atlantic Farmed Salmon spawned lots of feedback and got me to further research the pros (very few) and cons (lots) for eating that fish. So now, I'm on a quest to find a new favorite fish. One that will be healthy to eat, and not impact the environment.

This past weekend, we were in Hilton Head Island for a conference and I ordered Tile Fish, which I enjoyed immensely. That wonderful meal lead me to learn more about it in case it was another "bad" fish and dammit, it is, according to the EDF website. http://apps.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=1540 For years, I have been giving Len a hard time about eating Swordfish (which he loves), and the night I had the Tile Fish he had Wahoo and loved it and now we see it's not recommended either. It's very frustrating. We love seafood, and know it's good for our arteries and waistline, but it's hard to find good seafood that is first and foremost FRESH, and just as important, HEALTHY. Arctic Char intriques me but I don't think I have ever seen it for sale anywhere.

Take a look at the link and check out your favorite fish. See what the EDF says about it, and if it's "Eco-Best" let me know, okay?
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carl Eppig » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:06 pm

I wouldn't call "Eco-OK" a bad rap. I also found some of their observations/research a little fuzzy. The Maine lobster industry is in excellent shape, both in U.S. and Canada. Starting about 30 years ago state/provincial officials started to listen to lobstermen and the result is history, good history.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Tom Troiano » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:50 pm

Carl Eppig wrote:I wouldn't call "Eco-OK" a bad rap. I also found some of their observations/research a little fuzzy. The Maine lobster industry is in excellent shape, both in U.S. and Canada. Starting about 30 years ago state/provincial officials started to listen to lobstermen and the result is history, good history.



You're not suggesting our friends from Canada are taking lobsters in Maine, are you?
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carl Eppig » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:21 pm

Tom Troiano wrote:
Carl Eppig wrote:I wouldn't call "Eco-OK" a bad rap. I also found some of their observations/research a little fuzzy. The Maine lobster industry is in excellent shape, both in U.S. and Canada. Starting about 30 years ago state/provincial officials started to listen to lobstermen and the result is history, good history.



You're not suggesting our friends from Canada are taking lobsters in Maine, are you?



No, Maine Lobster is a family name to distiguish it from the Spiny Lobster. Having said that there have been some scrimishes along the salty border.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:32 pm

Carrie, Lynn and I think Organic Scottish salmon tastes about as good as any fish, certainly way better than the other types of salmon. I am not sure about any environmental impact factors, though.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:41 pm

Carl Eppig wrote:I wouldn't call "Eco-OK" a bad rap. I also found some of their observations/research a little fuzzy. The Maine lobster industry is in excellent shape, both in U.S. and Canada. Starting about 30 years ago state/provincial officials started to listen to lobstermen and the result is history, good history.


I love Maine lobster, of course, but Lynn won't let me eat it because she says the tomalley has mercury and other dangerous metals in it, from bottom feeding, and it is impossible for me to eat a lobster without devouring the tomalley and roe. She also warns about the high cholesterol. Of course a lobster isn't a fish, but that never stopped me from looking for one at a seafood restaurant. :)
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carl Eppig » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:05 pm

Covert wrote:I love Maine lobster, of course, but Lynn won't let me eat it because she says the tomalley has mercury and other dangerous metals in it, from bottom feeding, and it is impossible for me to eat a lobster without devouring the tomalley and roe. She also warns about the high cholesterol. Of course a lobster isn't a fish, but that never stopped me from looking for one at a seafood restaurant. :)


Then get lobster rolls, no tomalley or roe.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carrie L. » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:19 am

Covert wrote:Carrie, Lynn and I think Organic Scottish salmon tastes about as good as any fish, certainly way better than the other types of salmon. I am not sure about any environmental impact factors, though.


I think Jenise also mentioned that Scottish Salmon has some of the same qualities I like in the Atlantic Salmon. The problem is, I've never seen it for sale. Where do you get yours? Do you get it frozen?
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Howie Hart » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:34 am

Carrie - I haven't tried Arctic Char, but it sounds like something I'd like. Here is a link to Jenise's post from a few years ago:
http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17425&hilit=Arctic+Char&start=0
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Howie Hart » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:43 am

Sometimes I buy frozen ocean perch fillets, which are pretty good. I prefer fresh yellow pike (walleye), which is in the perch family and there are commercial fisheries with both yellow pike and perch on Lake Erie (close to home). I also buy frozen haddock, which is the standard for Friday fish fries at restaurants in the Buffalo area. Some of the old Catholic traditions live on around here.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:10 am

Carrie L. wrote:
Covert wrote:Carrie, Lynn and I think Organic Scottish salmon tastes about as good as any fish, certainly way better than the other types of salmon. I am not sure about any environmental impact factors, though.


I think Jenise also mentioned that Scottish Salmon has some of the same qualities I like in the Atlantic Salmon. The problem is, I've never seen it for sale. Where do you get yours? Do you get it frozen?


Never frozen; it couldn't be fresher. We get ours at Two Cousin's Fish Market in Newton Plaza in Latham, New York. I'll ask where it comes from, and you could call them. I hope the bloke doesn't tell me Scotland. :) It is lovelier that you would expect. You will be surprised and delighted with the taste and texture, and how beautifully it browns on the surface. We enjoyed it last night.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Mark Lipton » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:35 pm

Covert wrote:
Carrie L. wrote:
Covert wrote:Carrie, Lynn and I think Organic Scottish salmon tastes about as good as any fish, certainly way better than the other types of salmon. I am not sure about any environmental impact factors, though.


I think Jenise also mentioned that Scottish Salmon has some of the same qualities I like in the Atlantic Salmon. The problem is, I've never seen it for sale. Where do you get yours? Do you get it frozen?


Never frozen; it couldn't be fresher. We get ours at Two Cousin's Fish Market in Newton Plaza in Latham, New York. I'll ask where it comes from, and you could call them. I hope the bloke doesn't tell me Scotland. :) It is lovelier that you would expect. You will be surprised and delighted with the taste and texture, and how beautifully it browns on the surface. We enjoyed it last night.


I don't think that they could legally call it Scottish salmon if it wasn't from Scotland, as Scottish salmon is just Atlantic salmon from a particular source. I would also be highly skeptical of claims that the fish was never frozen as it's fairly universal practice in most salmon fisheries now to flash freeze the fish in the hold of the ship. The only unfrozen salmon I get are the ones I catch myself in Lake Michigan (talk about heavy metal problems! Lots of garlic and onion needed to detoxify those pups :mrgreen: )

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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:40 pm

Mark Lipton wrote:I don't think that they could legally call it Scottish salmon if it wasn't from Scotland, as Scottish salmon is just Atlantic salmon from a particular source. I would also be highly skeptical of claims that the fish was never frozen as it's fairly universal practice in most salmon fisheries now to flash freeze the fish in the hold of the ship. The only unfrozen salmon I get are the ones I catch myself in Lake Michigan (talk about heavy metal problems! Lots of garlic and onion needed to detoxify those pups :mrgreen: )Mark Lipton


I phoned Two Cousins and asked. The man who answered said the fish comes from the Faro Islands off of Scotland and is definitely not frozen in transit. I asked how it gets here unfrozen and the man got very surly and hung up on me. He didn't have any time to waste on someone not placing an order. So I placed a call to Anderson Seafoods (they have a website) which distributes organic Scottish salmon and asked Alberto (714 463 7870) the question. He said they have a sandwich kind of arrangement with the fish lying on wet ice under styrofoam which is in turn kept cold by dry ice over it so that the fish says at around 38 degrees f but doesn't freeze. It takes a day to fly it to Boston and then another day to get the fish to a store such as Two Cousins. Now these people could be lying of course. And you might know more than they do about their business, or maybe you have a different kind of experience base living in the Midwest.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Mark Lipton » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Covert wrote:
Mark Lipton wrote:I don't think that they could legally call it Scottish salmon if it wasn't from Scotland, as Scottish salmon is just Atlantic salmon from a particular source. I would also be highly skeptical of claims that the fish was never frozen as it's fairly universal practice in most salmon fisheries now to flash freeze the fish in the hold of the ship. The only unfrozen salmon I get are the ones I catch myself in Lake Michigan (talk about heavy metal problems! Lots of garlic and onion needed to detoxify those pups :mrgreen: )Mark Lipton


I phoned Two Cousins and asked. The man who answered said the fish comes from the Faro Islands off of Scotland and is definitely not frozen in transit. I asked how it gets here unfrozen and the man got very surly and hung up on me. He didn't have any time to waste on someone not placing an order. So I placed a call to Anderson Seafoods (they have a website) which distributes organic Scottish salmon and asked Alberto (714 463 7870) the question. He said they have a sandwich kind of arrangement with the fish lying on wet ice under styrofoam which is in turn kept cold by dry ice over it so that the fish says at around 38 degrees f but doesn't freeze. It takes a day to fly it to Boston and then another day to get the fish to a store such as Two Cousins. Now these people could be lying of course. And you might know more than they do about their business, or maybe you have a different kind of experience base living in the Midwest.


It sounds like they're on the up-and-up, but there's so much chicanery nowadays in the fish biz that it's almost impossible to be sure unless you're standing on the boat awaiting the catch's arrival :wink: I read of a recent study that found that over 50% of the fish sold was mislabeled in some fashion or another: some was farmed sold as wild-caught but, more egregiously, some of the fish was sold as a different variety altogether! It reminds me of the bad ol' days when credulous tourists were sold "scallops" at Fisherman's Wharf that were stamped out of shark meat. Of course nowadays shark meat costs so much that they're probably faking Mako by gluing together scallops using transglutaminase...

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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:48 pm

Mark Lipton wrote:
Covert wrote:
Mark Lipton wrote:I don't think that they could legally call it Scottish salmon if it wasn't from Scotland, as Scottish salmon is just Atlantic salmon from a particular source. I would also be highly skeptical of claims that the fish was never frozen as it's fairly universal practice in most salmon fisheries now to flash freeze the fish in the hold of the ship. The only unfrozen salmon I get are the ones I catch myself in Lake Michigan (talk about heavy metal problems! Lots of garlic and onion needed to detoxify those pups :mrgreen: )Mark Lipton


I phoned Two Cousins and asked. The man who answered said the fish comes from the Faro Islands off of Scotland and is definitely not frozen in transit. I asked how it gets here unfrozen and the man got very surly and hung up on me. He didn't have any time to waste on someone not placing an order. So I placed a call to Anderson Seafoods (they have a website) which distributes organic Scottish salmon and asked Alberto (714 463 7870) the question. He said they have a sandwich kind of arrangement with the fish lying on wet ice under styrofoam which is in turn kept cold by dry ice over it so that the fish says at around 38 degrees f but doesn't freeze. It takes a day to fly it to Boston and then another day to get the fish to a store such as Two Cousins. Now these people could be lying of course. And you might know more than they do about their business, or maybe you have a different kind of experience base living in the Midwest.


It sounds like they're on the up-and-up, but there's so much chicanery nowadays in the fish biz that it's almost impossible to be sure unless you're standing on the boat awaiting the catch's arrival :wink: I read of a recent study that found that over 50% of the fish sold was mislabeled in some fashion or another: some was farmed sold as wild-caught but, more egregiously, some of the fish was sold as a different variety altogether! It reminds me of the bad ol' days when credulous tourists were sold "scallops" at Fisherman's Wharf that were stamped out of shark meat. Of course nowadays shark meat costs so much that they're probably faking Mako by gluing together scallops using transglutaminase...

Mark Lipton


I certainly do not deny you the fact that there is a lot of chicanery, although I think you are being overly gracious with your euphemism for dirt ball activity. The NYT had an article in yesterday's paper about how sociopathy lies on a graduated scale so a lot of people have more than you and I need to see of it. If I wasn't on my way out of society in my isolated half-way house existence, I would be depressed about how much you have to watch your back today. The edge in my reply to you came from the suggestion that I wouldn't necessarily know whether I was eating fresh or frozen fish. Maybe I wouldn't, but I think I would, since the difference in my perspective, again right or wrong, is day and night. I have lived at water's edge for much of my life, both fresh and salt, and I adore fresh fish and dislike frozen fish.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Mark Lipton » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:25 pm

Covert wrote:I certainly do not deny you the fact that there is a lot of chicanery, although I think you are being overly gracious with your euphemism for dirt ball activity. The NYT had an article in yesterday's paper about how sociopathy lies on a graduated scale so a lot of people have more than you and I need to see of it. If I wasn't on my way out of society in my isolated half-way house existence, I would be depressed about how much you have to watch your back today. The edge in my reply to you came from the suggestion that I wouldn't necessarily know whether I was eating fresh or frozen fish. Maybe I wouldn't, but I think I would, since the difference in my perspective, again right or wrong, is day and night. I have lived at water's edge for much of my life, both fresh and salt, and I adore fresh fish and dislike frozen fish.


Covert,
I certainly meant no slight by raising the specter of frozen fish. The advances in flash freezing technology have been dramatic, and no fish in my experience takes it better than salmon. I am no stranger to fresh fish, either, having spent half my life in CA and NYC (where, thankfully, there is no shortage of good, fresh fish), and I have been shocked in the last two years to compare the quality of defrosted flash frozen salmon to the ones I've caught myself. (Taking into account all the while the differing terroirs of the Gulf of Alaska and Lake Michigan) In both texture and taste, the similarity is close enough to throw off all but the most experienced consumer. What they do on these salmon boats now is to have a liquid nitrogen chamber in the hold into which the fish go immediately upon their arrival on deck. They're frozen solid in seconds and kept in that state until delivery. In your case of fish caught in the Faro Islands, I'd expect some degradation in quality in the time it takes to get to you if the fish isn't flash frozen. The salmon that I catch will stay edible for about 3 days if kept close to freezing all the while, but even after 24 hours there is a noticeable decrease in quality to me.

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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Jeff Grossman/NYC » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:20 am

Mark, I have never tested it myself but I am told that there is a noticeable texture difference between frozen and never-frozen fish. Do you find that to be true?
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby GeoCWeyer » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:03 am

Covert wrote:Carrie, Lynn and I think Organic Scottish salmon tastes about as good as any fish, certainly way better than the other types of salmon. I am not sure about any environmental impact factors, though.



My god! I am agreeing with Covert! I am able to get some Orkney Island salmon that I really prefer.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:14 am

Mark Lipton wrote:Covert, I certainly meant no slight by raising the specter of frozen fish. The advances in flash freezing technology have been dramatic, and no fish in my experience takes it better than salmon. I am no stranger to fresh fish, either, having spent half my life in CA and NYC (where, thankfully, there is no shortage of good, fresh fish), and I have been shocked in the last two years to compare the quality of defrosted flash frozen salmon to the ones I've caught myself. (Taking into account all the while the differing terroirs of the Gulf of Alaska and Lake Michigan) In both texture and taste, the similarity is close enough to throw off all but the most experienced consumer. What they do on these salmon boats now is to have a liquid nitrogen chamber in the hold into which the fish go immediately upon their arrival on deck. They're frozen solid in seconds and kept in that state until delivery. In your case of fish caught in the Faro Islands, I'd expect some degradation in quality in the time it takes to get to you if the fish isn't flash frozen. The salmon that I catch will stay edible for about 3 days if kept close to freezing all the while, but even after 24 hours there is a noticeable decrease in quality to me. Mark Lipton


I believe you, Mark, that freezing a fish immediately with the new technology makes it fresher on the table than traveling for 48 hours on ice. I just did not know about the advance. There is no question that a fish loses its appeal exponentially from the time it is taken.

Tomorrow Lynn and I leave for ten days at our mountain lake camp. The lake is small, two miles long and a third of a mile across at our place, but it is private and hardly fished, while enjoying what a DEC ranger termed perfect ecological balance from the sample he had taken. Lynn and I paddled around the shore recently in the early morning before the surface had a ripple and we could see down maybe 20 feet. We spotted at least 100 nice Black and Smallmouth bass. One lunker swam alongside the canoe for a while as if comparing lengths. I swore off fishing for aesthetic reasons after being zealous in my youth, but I might need to make an exception, just so I could taste a bona fide fresh fish again.
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Mark Lipton » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:32 pm

Covert wrote:Tomorrow Lynn and I leave for ten days at our mountain lake camp. The lake is small, two miles long and a third of a mile across at our place, but it is private and hardly fished, while enjoying what a DEC ranger termed perfect ecological balance from the sample he had taken. Lynn and I paddled around the shore recently in the early morning before the surface had a ripple and we could see down maybe 20 feet. We spotted at least 100 nice Black and Smallmouth bass. One lunker swam alongside the canoe for a while as if comparing lengths. I swore off fishing for aesthetic reasons after being zealous in my youth, but I might need to make an exception, just so I could taste a bona fide fresh fish again.


I know the feeling, Covert. Fortuitously, I spent two summers of my youth on family friends' ranch in NW Montana, and there I learned to fly fish for trout. That was long before catch and release (and whirling disease) so we caught what we could eat and brought them back for pan fried trout dinners (with huckleberry pie for dessert) and trout and eggs for breakfast. Now I rarely fish as the appeal of catch and release is limited and I can't in all good conscience deplete the population of wild trout in regions where it is endangered. Salmon fishing in Lake Michigan provides fresh salmon for eating, but bears no resemblance to fly fishing, or any other kind of fishing I've done. Fresh salmon and Lake trout is hard to pass up, though.

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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Covert » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:34 pm

Mark Lipton wrote:
Covert wrote:Tomorrow Lynn and I leave for ten days at our mountain lake camp. The lake is small, two miles long and a third of a mile across at our place, but it is private and hardly fished, while enjoying what a DEC ranger termed perfect ecological balance from the sample he had taken. Lynn and I paddled around the shore recently in the early morning before the surface had a ripple and we could see down maybe 20 feet. We spotted at least 100 nice Black and Smallmouth bass. One lunker swam alongside the canoe for a while as if comparing lengths. I swore off fishing for aesthetic reasons after being zealous in my youth, but I might need to make an exception, just so I could taste a bona fide fresh fish again.


I know the feeling, Covert. Fortuitously, I spent two summers of my youth on family friends' ranch in NW Montana, and there I learned to fly fish for trout. That was long before catch and release (and whirling disease) so we caught what we could eat and brought them back for pan fried trout dinners (with huckleberry pie for dessert) and trout and eggs for breakfast. Now I rarely fish as the appeal of catch and release is limited and I can't in all good conscience deplete the population of wild trout in regions where it is endangered. Salmon fishing in Lake Michigan provides fresh salmon for eating, but bears no resemblance to fly fishing, or any other kind of fishing I've done. Fresh salmon and Lake trout is hard to pass up, though. Mark Lipton


Yes, I avoided elaborating on my environmental saws. While my particular lake is teaming, many bodies of water, especially the oceans, have lost most of their fish. In my figurative thinking, I don’t want to be the person to pull the last fish out of the last pond with fish. With that kind of pathos in my mind, and I guess some kind of Taoist sense that fish are as important as I am on the planet, I no longer find any pleasure in hurting them.

A lot of people think I am daffy for my Jungian views, but like I said to Howie regarding his statement that wine is just wine, the fish is also a Christ symbol. I think that before a man understands his deeper psychic reaches a little bit, pulling a fish out of the water provides a numinous substitute: it symbolically mines his unconscious psyche for its hidden Christ, id est, Self. When you know this, whether it is crazy or no, fishing loses its draw. But I might do it one more time just to taste the wondrous flavor. I’ll take a few nips first to dull my conscience. :)
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Carrie L. » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:30 am

Howie Hart wrote:Sometimes I buy frozen ocean perch fillets, which are pretty good. I prefer fresh yellow pike (walleye), which is in the perch family and there are commercial fisheries with both yellow pike and perch on Lake Erie (close to home). I also buy frozen haddock, which is the standard for Friday fish fries at restaurants in the Buffalo area. Some of the old Catholic traditions live on around here.


Howie, I have never had the opportunity to try Walleye (do they sometimes call it Walleye Pike?), but I have heard more people--mostly from the Great Lakes area--say it's hand's down their favorite fish. What's it "a-kin" to?
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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Mark Lipton » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:37 am

Carrie L. wrote:
Howie Hart wrote:Sometimes I buy frozen ocean perch fillets, which are pretty good. I prefer fresh yellow pike (walleye), which is in the perch family and there are commercial fisheries with both yellow pike and perch on Lake Erie (close to home). I also buy frozen haddock, which is the standard for Friday fish fries at restaurants in the Buffalo area. Some of the old Catholic traditions live on around here.


Howie, I have never had the opportunity to try Walleye (do they sometimes call it Walleye Pike?), but I have heard more people--mostly from the Great Lakes area--say it's hand's down their favorite fish. What's it "a-kin" to?


Walleye is, as Howie says, a member of the perch family. It's got a flaky consistency, is mildly flavored and not very oily. It's far from my favorite fish, but in the Midwest it is one fish that you can often get fresh.

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Re: Fishing for a new favorite fish

Postby Howie Hart » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:35 am

Thanks Mark. Yes it is also referred to as walleye pike. When I was a kid, my cousins had a cottage in Ontario, on the North Shore of Lake Erie near Port Dover. We'd go out in the boat fishing and occasionally run into a school of yellow pike (walleye) and catch dinner. Port Dover is a beautiful little resort town with a fishing fleet, a small amusement park and perch and chips stands. Those were a real treat! During the '70s, Pierre Troudeau would vacation there every summer.
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