How far should a restaurant go?

Well, I've always had ample fare for vegetarians in my restaurants. maybe it had something to do with the fact that demand was there in California. But, even in Memphis, I always had something.

No, not for the extremists. There are folks in India I know who don't eat tomatoes and watermelon because they are the color of blood. And some who don't eat garlic and onions because they're associated with the cooking of meat.

I've always had pastas, salads, quiches, pizzas, souffles. At Mudd's I even kept a stockpot of vegetable stock so we could throw something together. Unfortunately nearly all my soups are meat or seafood based. (It *is* a pain in the ass to try to get flavor in soup without a rich stock).

I don't believe one would even be aware that Greens in San Francisco is a vegetarian restaurant upon casual observation. At least that was what one person I took there observed.

There are ways to accommodate vegetarians without a lot of pain in the kitchen.

I don't want to teach my granny to suck eggs, but there are all sorts of cool tricks to enrich a vegetable stock. Start with the idea that the Maillard reaction is your friend. Hard cheese rinds (especially Parmesan) really beef things up. A little soy sauce and mushroom extract can add the missing umami. Agar can fill in the body that meat stocks get from bones. And so on and so on.

Greens is OK, but I've never had a meal there I thought was worth the price. Ditto Millennium.

I'm not a believer in the customer is always right. Some customers are wrong, and a$%sholes. But simple requests for substitutions should be honored. And to me every restaurant (including steakhouses*, excluding of course Lugers because it is Lugers) should be prepared to whip up some type of vegetarian fare. Hell, margin should be higher.

But... enriching your vegetable stock with Parmesan? I use rinds in stock.But for a restaurant, about 3-4% of US diners are vegetarian. About half of those are vegan (some of whom avoid soy sauce because they are anti-wheat). There's a limit to how many stocks a restaurant should keep!

I think I know Jenise's ex-friend.

* doesn't matter if it's client or customer, anyone making a business dinner at a steakhouse w/o checking with others is an a$&hole.

I don't want to teach my granny to suck eggs, but there are all sorts of cool tricks to enrich a vegetable stock. Start with the idea that the Maillard reaction is your friend. Hard cheese rinds (especially Parmesan) really beef things up. A little soy sauce and mushroom extract can add the missing umami. Agar can fill in the body that meat stocks get from bones. And so on and so on.

Yeah, yeah, I know all that stuff...still...

Greens is OK, but I've never had a meal there I thought was worth the price. Ditto Millennium

.

I had several fine meals at Greens, of course that was over 25 years ago when Deborah Madison was there.

Never been to Millennium.

What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.
I think this is another form of rudeness so applicable to this thread and wonder what you think the resto should do, go with the flow, ban them from coming in, or what.

Perhaps I am showing my old age, but my Mother taught me that whenever I go inside I should remove my hat. Good advice, but that is probably not likely to happen when my hair is a sweaty mop and I have to go over to the hardware store for parts. On the other hand, I’d never go into a restaurant with a baseball cap on, nor would I attend a funeral or job interview with a cap on my melon.

Can't help but wonder if I was abducted to a vegatarian restaurant would they go whip me up a rare steak (beef) upon request?
Redwinger

Bingo: the implication being that when you know what to expect, you accept what you get.

I'm of the mind that, if the item being requested for substitution is in the house, and it won't throw off the timing of the meal, then it should be accommodated.
I think a cook who won't sub item A for item B, or leave a seasoning or sauce off, or serve it on the side, is making a poor business decision.

OTOH, if a guest is being unreasonable, and filling the request will inconvenience other customers, then I think it's okay to say, "Sorry, but we can't do that today."

[Perhaps I am showing my old age, but my Mother taught me that whenever I go inside I should remove my hat.

My parents/grandparents taught me the same thing and it was reinfornced by a Drill Sgt.
Like you said, it is prolly an age thing.
Bill

[Jenise]

I know the question wasn't directed at me

Well, indirectly it was. And thanks for your support! The last time this happened was at a relatively high-end Napa eatery. I was given about zero notice so didn't call ahead. Very nice decor, very nice menu, all dead animal; vegetarianism is uncommon in many places, but California is not one of them! They made me a plate with several unrelated side dishes from other menu items, which were all reasonably tasty, but there was no "there" there. It wasn't like the resto was packed, it just struck me as sheer indifference.

By contrast, the first time I went to Le Cote-Rotie in Ampuis, France, my host had neglected to warn the chef ahead of time, and it turned out that he had never even HEARD of vegetarians, couldn't imagine such a thing. But he thought about it for a minute, smiled, and said, "Veuillez attender, Monsieur," and made me one of the finest meals of my life. The next several times I went, the locals all asked him for the same as I was getting and pronounced them the best things the chef had ever cooked.

That's a great story! Brilliant chef. I would think any good chef worth his salt would, given the time, actually appreciate that challenge.

But re the indifference, years ago you made me aware of how badly vegetarians were generally provided for in most restaurants, and I started looking at menus from your point of view. The first thing I saw was that about 90% of the vegetarian dishes, when they existed, were pasta primavera. It was laughable! Btw, I still look at menus that way. Just last Tuesday, dining at a wonderful new restaurant in Bellingham (a French-Danish bistro with real chefs who understand great food, I wanted to kiss everybody in there!), I found myself assessing the vegetarian options, and marvelled at a vegan main course of farro and grain stuffed cabbage rolls in a sauce made of fresh tomatoes and green apples. There was one other thing on the menu I wanted even more that was seasonal and about to go away, but next time I'm there I'll surely order this dish.

Loved Greens, btw, the one time I ate there. It was maybe the first vegetarian restaurant I've been to that didn't reek of rancid onions.

Not that I ever would, but if I were to operate a restaurant, I think I might understand that you don't have to be a vegetarian to enjoy vegetarian dishes, and I would want them on my menu for omnivorous reasons, if not to at least make the restaurant a place for all people to enjoy.

Still, I maintain that it is the consumer's obligation not the restaurant's (especially if the consumer has set his or her own limitations) either to find out what the restaurant serves or would serve, not go to that restaurant, or just plain suck it up.

Sorry, Stuart, I don't buy your argument that there have been times when you were forced to go to a restaurant, for business reasons or otherwise. You don't seem to me like a person who can't say his piece, even to business associates.

Incidentally, to the question: is the customer always right? The answer is a definitive NO. But anyone who has spent time in retail also knows that the retailer is always wrong...

Quick story about a very popular resto here in the L.A. area who changed chefs and the first 'rule' he instituted under his regime, was no subs and no possibility to order one course of a small 3-course pre fixe menu that was part of a pretty large general menu...his way or the highway...
The place went from always full to something like an old Western ghost town. He was gone in 3 months.

Thank you all for your great comments and observations. And I'd like to say it's a pleasure to be among such a well-mannered bunch!
May I rachet this up a notch and add the following:
What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.
I think this is another form of rudeness so applicable to this thread and wonder what you think the resto should do, go with the flow, ban them from coming in, or what.
And LOL, are we leading up to screaming children...maybe that should be a separate thread!

Restaurants should trade: no dress code in return for no screaming children.

I have mixed feelings on this. I agree with Barb that usually a restaurant will put some thought into what goes into a particular dish, so if you start substituting or asking for things on the side, you'll probably come out with something completely different than what the chef intends.

On the other hand, one of our best friends has celiac, so one little bit of gluten can make him sick for days. He asks a million questions and relies on the ability to make special requests. (Add to this that he nor his wife cooks, so they go out a lot.)

My husband and I are not big on special requests. I usually like things as is. He is not as much a "sauce person" as I am though, so he often will request the sauce on the side in case he doesn't care for it. This hasn't seemed to be a problem anywhere we've gone. I so think a lot of people go overboard on special requests and questions--it can be a strain on dining companions as well as servers and chefs! Jenise, your "friend" would have made me nuts.

Thomas : Restaurants should trade in no dress code in return for no screaming children
LOL thomas, very possible we'd enjoy ding at the same places if above was observed!

Our slightly autistic granddaughter turned 21 today. We took her on a long trip south when she was fourteen. She had the ability then as she does today the ability to get what she wanted in an eclectic restaurant. She does this with being rude or using manipulation. She asks very politely if she could possibly have this or that, or even get a meal off the kids’ menu in an adult version.

One example: On the way home we stopped at the Navy Inn on Staten Island for a couple of days to show her NYC. The first night we took her to a newly opened restaurant on SI. It was higher recommended in the 2002 Zagat guide. It was a small space and the waiter turned out to be the prop. She reviewed the menu with him and asked if they ice cream for dessert. He said they had gelato in vanilla with seeds. She asked if she could have caramel sauce on it. He said fine. Halfway through the meal he came through the front door with a small paper bag in him hand.

Great kid, great restaurant! We’ve been back several times.

What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.

It seems to be a regional thing. It happens a lot in California. New Englanders would be appalled. I do think a restaurant has the right to establish dress code rules and to enforce them. If there's any doubt, I always ask the restaurant ahead of time.

And LOL, are we leading up to screaming children...maybe that should be a separate thread!

Bringing screaming or ill-behaved children to a restaurant is simply rude behavior. Full stop. I'm in full support of the restaurateur's duty, on behalf of and in defense of the other patrons, to ask the offending party to either control their offspring or leave.

-Paul W.

As a rule of thumb, Albuquerque restaurants ask only that you be dressed. The tie thing is way overrated and if I could go back in time, I'd kill the guy who invented them. I get claustrophobic just looking at them.

What are your feelings about diners going to an upscale resto dressed, males-baseball caps, sleeveless shirts or t-shirts, flipflops, shorts, applied to both sexes and...you get the picture.
I think this is another form of rudeness so applicable to this thread and wonder what you think the resto should do, go with the flow, ban them from coming in, or what.

Usually I agree with Stuart but not in this case. Bothers me a lot, even though I realize there is a move to very upscale casual restaurants. If its an upscale restaurant, I am probably paying for not only food and service but ambience as well. Don't want to feel like I'm eating in the locker room. Don't want to have even the remotest thought that the aromas are armpit or feet!!! (I will make an exception if the women are attractive and wearing bikinis.) Just like the old days when restos had ties or jackets for the gentlemen if needed, they should think about having other garb as well. And if the underdressed don't understand, well send them packing. Losing a few covers beats losing the future business of all the other diners in the room.

If armpits or feet are stinking, fancier shoes or clothing aren't going to change that (trust me on this, I've dined in France).

Let me clarify: I don't mind a minimal requirement of "no shirt, no shoes, no service," but I'm not going to go to a restaurant which makes me wear a monkey suit. I've eaten at Michelin three stars without a jacket/tie; they just seemed to care that my credit card had enough headroom.

If a restaurant is going to allow bikinis, there should be a maximum BMI requirement.

I'm with Stuart. I ate a number of times at a sorta upscale restaurant near our home in Minneapolis. One time I showed up dressed in slacks, sport coat, etc., but sans tie. They grudgingly let me inside and hid us where nobody could see us, all the time making us feel a bit uncomfortable. Who needs them?

One time in Sydney, I went to a club wearing a turtleneck, sport coat, etc., and they had me put a tie on around my turtleneck. That made me look a lot better, I'm sure.

As a rule of thumb, Albuquerque restaurants ask only that you be dressed. The tie thing is way overrated and if I could go back in time, I'd kill the guy who invented them. I get claustrophobic just looking at them.

I knew I like you for a reason...a few years ago, I had a tie burning party.

Story: when I worked for a wine distributor, the dress code was jacket and tie (with a shirt, too). It was the dress code at most houses and so, whenever a large retail store was being serviced by two or more distributor reps, the place looked like it had been raided by the FBI!

I dressed nicely, even with a jacket, but since I hate ties, I did not wear them. One day, a manager spotted me working without a tie around my neck and he reported me to the VP. At the next sales meeting, I was taken to task for not living up to the dress code. I politely, but firmly, told my tormentor that not one customer has ever refused to order wine form me because I wasn't wearing a tie and that I'd bet not one customer called the office to complain about my attire so, when my sales figures prove that the lack of a tie made me a slacker we can talk again about the issue.

Them being completely reasonable people, my days were numbered...

Just to clarify my contention about dress...certainly does NOT extend to making the guys wear ties, something I avoid if at all possible.
I'm talking about "respect" for the upscale resto in which you're dining and for your fellow diners who have made an effort
This "rant" is not meant to include diners, coffee shops, beach restos, McD's etc. but I do believe, IMO of course, that baseball caps, baggy shorts & you can fill in the rest, are out of place in an upscale resto where the level of 'expectation' is certainly higher (or should be) than dining at the local McD's, and at the commensurately higher prices you're paying, I think you're entitled to a "special" experience or at least one that's more gratifying. Nobody wants to walk away feeling they were just ripped off, physically, mentally or aesthetically.
If that last bit required an exclamation point, consider it there!

The vast majority of restaurants around here do not have a dress code. The few that do have a stated dress code usually call it “smart casual”. I take that to mean that I am not expected to wear a coat or tie, but I should not show up in my yard work clothes.

Years ago, I was invited to a dinner at an unfamiliar Boston restaurant. I arrived wearing expensive dress shoes, nice trousers and a business shirt with cuff links. Upon entering, the Manager of the restaurant informed me that I needed a jacket. I explained that I did not have a jacket with me so he was kind enough to loan me one “from the house”. It was 38 short, powder blue in color and the sleeves only came half-way down my forearms. I looked like a total idiot but the Manager told me that “The Rules are the Rules”.

Thank goodness they did not have a tie requirement. Who knows what kind of pink tie with gravy stains on it they would have made me wear.