What do you want to know about German wine?

[David M. Bueker]

Ok, so I have agreed to do a German wine TalkShoe (for those who do not know what it is - check the TalkShoe forum). But I don't just want to blab along endlessly (though I am good at that), but rather answer the "burning" questions about wine grown on the edge of viticultural viability.

So tell me what you want to know. I will make a list & try to hit most/all of the topics.

[James Roscoe]

Who the f%*# cares when the grapes were picked and why put it on the label?

You asked.

David,
As you know I make Riesling at home. I also drink quite a bit of "store-bought" Riesling. In addition, about 25 years ago I actually took a correspondence course in German wines from the German-American Wine Institute (or some such organization). I know the range from Kabinette to TBA. I know what Rulander and Spat-Burgunder are. I know about green bottles for M-S-R and brown for Rhine. But, I still can't make sense of a German wine label.

[David M. Bueker]

Hmm...a show on wine labels. Well at least I will get to practice my language skills.

Superb, I can't wait for the Shoe, should be very educational. My questions would include:

1. What are the major distinctions among the German regions? Some grow different grapes, so that can be easy to track, but less so are what could be stylistic differences across regions for a single varietal.

2. Non-riesling German varietals worth seeking out. (One could obviously pursue riesling for years without getting bored, but what else is on the horizon?)

3. Useful generalizations for what wines are best consumed in the near-term, what would most benefit from aging (and how much), and what wines are good both now and later?

4. Any major developing trends in German winemaking, whether worrying or encouraging. Many other winegrowing regions around the world have their controversies, but I am less aware of those that exist for German wines.

But, I still can't make sense of a German wine label.

Geez, Howie, you ain't that old! Read the whole section on Taste and Quality on the German Wine Institute website (which includes a section on the label) and everything will be revealed.

German Wine Labels and More

Although the English on this site can be somewhat cumbersome, it is chock full of dependable info.

Thanks Gary - I bookmarked the page and will go there the next time I plan on buying a German wine.

Greatly looking forward to this show, David. When is it on? If I can make it (remember I have to be awake at 3 am in the morning), I will draft some perplexing, brain-snapping questions for you and, as only my chronically maladjusted (some would even suggest perverted) aussie DNA would have it, will give you absolutely no prior notice as to what they may be.

Thanking you in advance for what, I'm sure, will be a fantastic show!

Who the f%*# cares when the grapes were picked and why put it on the label?

Well the labels actually don't tell you when the grapes were picked.

They tell you how heavy the must was after crush.

Which are different things because higher weight (i.e. auslese) can be picked before lower weight (i.e. kabinett) but then an even higher weight (i.e. TBA) comes after both.

But we'll leave this to David.

[David M. Bueker]

They "theoretically" tell you when or how the grapes were picked, since spatlese means late harvest and auslese means selected harvest.

The whole 1971 wine law is poorly understood. Of course it's a poor law.

Perhaps this is a personal issue and not right for talkshoe but how about the declassification of higher pradikat wines to Kabinet level? Last week I tasted through a Mosel producers line up and the Kabinet was huge, thick and delicious but certainly not a Kab (or at least what I'd expect). If I was purchasing in a restaurant or for a meal at home, I'd have been put off. I know the practice leads to stunning value but If I order a $10 salad and you bring me a $20 piece of rich chocolate cake to start my meal, it's not a great value.

Doesn't sound like a personal issue to me.

I can imagine many would want to jump in on Talk Shoe about it.

Not that I'm an authority with any influence or anything..

If I was purchasing in a restaurant or for a meal at home, I'd have been put off..

But, once again this brings up the essential role of the retail clerk/sommelier who should be familiar with all the specific wines on offer and be able to guide the customer accordingly. That type of knowledge really is essential for me in deciding where to spend my money.

[David M. Bueker]

Great input.

[James Roscoe]

Who the f%*# cares when the grapes were picked and why put it on the label?

Well the labels actually don't tell you when the grapes were picked.

They tell you how heavy the must was after crush.

Which are different things because higher weight (i.e. auslese) can be picked before lower weight (i.e. kabinett) but then an even higher weight (i.e. TBA) comes after both.

But we'll leave this to David.

Thanks Rashaan, your answer just points out my own ignorance and why David needs to include this in his show. Of course his response raises all kinds of new questions. I still want to know why the Germans chose to go this route instead of just calling it by a different name?

I'd like to know what vintages in recent years resulted in Eisweins and who some of the Eiswein producers are besides Donhoff.

Do growers do anything to encourage Edelfaule (noble rot) or does it just occur naturally?

Which region has the longest history of wine-making?

What is the principal education institute in Germany for viticulture and viniculture and about how many students are enrolled per year? (The German UC-Davis)

And please stress how food friendly German wine is and how it is produced in varying degrees of sweetness or as a dry wine (no detectable residual sugar). I still encounter people who avoid all German Riesling thinking it is all sweet.

[David M. Bueker]

Wow - even some questions where I will have to do research!!

This is neat.

I would also like to learn more about what's going on w/ the label. I get the basic pradikat categories, but really have no idea what designations like the following mean:

Dr. (does this go before the producer?)
Wehlener Sonnenhur (assume this is an appelation??)
Joh Joh (JJ - I've seen this used for Prum & Cristoffel - also seems to go before the producer?)
Loosen (also an appelation?)
Badstude
Etc. and so on...

I've tried to look this stuff up myself, but seem only to come across sites selling wine, nothing really educational.

I checked out Gary's link but still was unable to find anything that would explain it to me (unless I overlooked something, which is entirely possible).

Not David, but quick answers..

Dr. (does this go before the producer?)

Only if the producer/founder of the winery is/was also a Doctor

Wehlener Sonnenhur (assume this is an appelation??)

Sort of. It's the vineyard designation.

Wehlen is the town (like when you see Nuits St. George or Pommard on Burgundy labels)

Sonnenuhr is the name of a vineyard.

So when you see Wehlener Sonnenuhr read it the same way as a Burgundy label that says Nuits St. George "Les Roncieres"

Joh Joh (JJ - I've seen this used for Prum & Cristoffel - also seems to go before the producer?)

Only if their name is Johann Josef

Loosen (also an appelation?)

Name of a producer.

Badstude

Name of a vineyard. Often seen on wine labels as Bernkastel Bastube because the Badstube vineyard is in the town of Bernkastel.

I can answer some of those questions, K. (I'm not in the business--just a serious hobby)
Germans take their educational credentials seriously and Dr. indicates an advanced degree--not necessarily in medicine. (You can also see Dr. Dr. if they have two degrees or perhaps if a wife has a degree and so does her husband) Dr. will often appear in the producer's name as Dr. Fischer in Ockfener Bockstein wine or Dr. Wagner, etc.
Loosen is a surname--Dr. Ernst Loosen
Wehlen is the village and a wine from there is a Wehlener as a wine from Rudesheim is a Rudesheimer, etc. Sonnenuhr translates as sun clock or sun dial and Wehlener Sonnenuhr is a famous site on the middle Mosel that has a large sun dial. You may also see Zeltinger Sonnenuhr.
Joh is usually (?) an abbreviated form of Johannes, a first or middle name. JJ Prum and JJ Christoffel are indeed producers although the wineries usually retain the name of a founder and it may be the son or grandson now making the wines (i.e. Manfred Prum?)
Badstube--not sure if this is a particular vineyard or a generic name for vineyards in a certain district--I take it that it follows a village name on the label (Bernkastel perhaps or Mainz?)

Oops. Rahsaan got there first.

Thanks Rahsaan & JC, that helps!

Whenever I've seen the Dr., I've always wanted to say "doctor" but thought that was just too easy an explanation. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best, huh?

[David M. Bueker]

Lots of good info above.

Everything would be reasonably easy to explain until we got to the Grosses Gewachs/Erste Lage/etc. changes. Now a wine from the Piesporter Goldtropfchen (the Goldtropfchen vineyard in Piesport) can possibly be labeled as just "Goldtropfchen". Of course if it is the wine is dry (at least according to the German definition of dry) & comes in a really fancy bottle.

Just remember the German motto: there's nothing so confusing that we can't make it more confusing.

Who the f%*# cares when the grapes were picked and why put it on the label?

Well the labels actually don't tell you when the grapes were picked.

They tell you how heavy the must was after crush.

Which are different things because higher weight (i.e. auslese) can be picked before lower weight (i.e. kabinett) but then an even higher weight (i.e. TBA) comes after both.

But we'll leave this to David.

Thanks Rashaan, your answer just points out my own ignorance and why David needs to include this in his show. Of course his response raises all kinds of new questions. I still want to know why the Germans chose to go this route instead of just calling it by a different name?

Meanwhile I can't get an image out of my head of a bunch of German winemakers lined up, exercising and chanting in unison:

We must . . .

We must . . .

We must increase our must!

--Okay, slightly disturbing aside over -- back to the less disturbing serious stuff.

[David M. Bueker]

Ugh!

I prefer Terry Theise's little rant about changes to German wine law: "Well I've got 5 bullets left in the chamber and one good foot..."