2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

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2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Jacques Levy » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 pm

All Charmes Chambertin at Premier Cru; just to get a point of reference

Potel: $160
Girardin: $120
Geantet-Pansiot: $135

On the other hand, Rousseau 2003 and 2004 Charmes are $70 and $80. I understand the allure of vintage (though less in the case of Burgundy than Bordeaux) and I understand the declining value of the dollar, but I always buy the producer I like in Burgundy first and foremost.

I am a Rousseau groupie!
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:01 pm

Jacques,

A few thoughts (not well organized)

I agree prices are nuts. Unfortunately many people are Rousseau groupies, which is why so many are chasing the '05 Rousseau's (forget the Charmes, check the prices on the big 3 if you can find them). On a comparison to previous vintages, the '05 Rousseau Charmes is priced even higher than the ones you list.

There is a real stratification in the market as folks fight for "the best"

Because of that stratification, my usual tendency is to try and find the overachievers (especially among my favorite producers) in the "middling" vintages, and the lower end wines that do well in the hyped vintages.

While I've often chanted "producer, producer, producer" there are reasons for vintage hype, and non-hype. I might go for the '04 Rousseau Charmes at that price, but I'd look for notes for the '03 before I tried. I bought a couple '03 Chevillon 1ers on the "always producer" theory- ouch.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Covert » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:41 am

The millions – and counting – of multi-millionaires in the world have forever elevated most finite areas of pleasure above where even millionaires can comfortably tread.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Covert » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:26 am

I might add to my last comment that besides the effect of the multi-millionaire juggernaut after finite areas of pleasure, our President’s passion for war (no president should ever be elected to high office who can’t enjoy a glass of wine) is reducing the US dollar value toward the status of the WW II German Mark.

For the past few years I have drunk mostly classed growths. Recently, because of rapidly rising prices for them, I decided to pad my cellar with cru bourgeois, many costing as little as $14 a bottle, and drink only one classed growth a week. At first, the lesser bottles seemed shallow, but after getting used to them, nuances starting showing themselves to the point where they are just fine, now. (The best find of all was the $14 2005 Moulin D’Issan, and a $14 2001 Bel Air last night was wonderfully full bodied with a pungently layered nose, some very nice cab flavors and a long licorice finish). Now, by contrast, the once-a-week classed growths are a real treat. If I were a burg fan, I might buy some inexpensive pinots for daily consumption and drink a burg once a month.

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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby David M. Bueker » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:24 am

One of the little joys of these price increases (and remember that about 50% of it is weakening of the dollar from its barely remembered dominance over the Euro) is that it has forced me to look lower in the Burgundy echelons. What I amn finding is that newer producers and lower level wines are at a similar quality level to solid village and good premier cru wines from "top" producers 6-8 yerars ago. Chevillon's 2005 Vaucrains is now out of my league, but a producer new to me named Chezeaux is doing very good things in Nuits St Georges at a 30-50% discount against the prices for Chevillon's lower bottlings (e.g. Chaignots).

The same goes for Bordeaux. There's so many quality Cru Bourgeois out there now that it's not really worth lamenting price increases at Branaire or Pontet-Canet (to name two that I used to buy religiously - and stopped after 2004).

I had the same experience with Germany's 2006 vintage. If the trend continues 2006 will have been my last year buying the top producers/stalwarts of my cellar (Donnhoff, Diel, Prum, Weil, Haag, Haart, etc.), but there's a wealth of other producers now making wines at or close enough to their level that for current consumption it doesn't really matter. Recent finds where I bought in quantity include wines from Gysler & Reuscher-Haart to name just two out of a list of more than 10.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby James Dietz » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:50 pm

Following up on David's and Covert's comments, many 2005 Bourgognes are offering excellent value....A big boy here and there, and lots of entry level bottlings from good houses and one can survive without being a multi-millionaire.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dan Donahue » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:09 pm

Burgundy is trendy now and the high cost of the '05s is dragging up the prices on earlier vintages. So I'm buying very few Burgs right now. But there are plenty of other wine regions to explore: Italy is still mainly reasonable; Rhones are trying to hang in there; the Loire valley is chock full of interesting wines and I'm having a lot of luck with dry reds from Portugal.

A little research and an open mind really help.

BTW a lot of people are going to open those '05 Burgundy trophy wines too early and be very unhappy.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby P. Rousseau » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:12 pm

Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I'm completly lacking with my knowledge of reds... but I gotta find some of those, simply on name alone!!! :D
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:23 pm

P. Rousseau wrote:Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I'm completly lacking with my knowledge of reds... but I gotta find some of those, simply on name alone!!! :D


Indeed! Domaine Armand Rousseau is one of the true greats of Gevrey (actually of all Burgundy). With the name, you just gotta try!

James Dietz wrote: many 2005 Bourgognes are offering excellent value....A big boy here and there, and lots of entry level bottlings from good houses and one can survive without being a multi-millionaire.


A good strategy, though it pains me to see how much my favorite Bourgognes (things like Lafarge, Chevillon, Bachelet, Barthod, etc) are going for.

As far as pricing, the reality has always been that the things proclaimed as best always demand a premium, and that the incremental differences in quality lessen at the top, but the premium increases. 2005 gets almost universal acclaim as a vintage. That and the weak dollar mean big increases.

As far as it goes, Gilman called the 2005 Rousseau Charmes the best he'd ever tasted. Claude Kolm also gave it a very good review (though he actually rated the Potel as better if you're counting points) -better than the 2004 and much better than the 2003. But now the 2005 is $200+.

Its hard to compare different wines across different vintages. I'd probably prefer '04 Rousseau to '05 Girardin or G-P, they aren't my style. But I'm not sure that I would prefer '04 Rousseau to '05 Potel, especially in 15 years. I'm a big Rousseau fan, but as I said, 2003 vintage is not my style, and a wine you don't like isn't a bargain at any price.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Michael K » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:58 pm

I normally try to get about a case of the Lafarge Clos de Chenes in good years but this year was tough based on the price so made a bit of a switch further down the line and bought 1/3 case clos de chene, 1/3 case Villes Vignes and 1/3 case bourgogne. Still feels like I'm going home with a full case of lafarge though. :)...abet....price for that is not too far off a full case of clos de chenes from a couple of years ago.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:03 pm

Michael K wrote:1/3 case clos de chene, 1/3 case Villes Vignes and 1/3 case bourgogne..


Michael,
I assume you meant the Volnay Vendanges Selectionees? I don't think Lafarge makes any Vieilles Vignes designated wines, although he has lots of old vines. I think I remember even the Bourgogne is from 30 or 40 year old vines that were once designated Volnay.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dan Donahue » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Luckily I bought a lot of my '05 Burgundies on pre-arrival before the prices went crazy. I also--partly because of my age, these wines will need years--bought more village wines than I have in the past.

And when I grabbed some of my favorite producers, I moved down the prestige ladder. No more d'Angerville Ducs (instead, Champans), no more Chevillon Vaucrains (Roncieres) etc. I'm happy with what I got but I won't go deeply into any future vintages unless the prices come back in line. I dropped many of my regular purchases because the prices were more than I will pay for a bottle of wine.

BTW you can blame the dollar and you can blame the producers, but most of the increase came from the importers. Some local people got very greedy and I say, don't look to me for help when you can't sell your off-vintages.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Michael K » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:20 pm

Michael,
I assume you meant the Volnay Vendanges Selectionees? I don't think Lafarge makes any Vieilles Vignes designated wines, although he has lots of old vines. I think I remember even the Bourgogne is from 30 or 40 year old vines that were once designated Volnay.


oops...you are right. It is and there is gold "Vendanges Selectionnes" sticker that is slanted on the bottle. Thanks for the information on the bourgogne, I did not know that but now it makes sense. I tried a bottle of the '04 bourgogne a couple of months back and that was pretty much shut down then.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Jacques Levy » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:06 pm

Well, my strategy is to buy the 2003 and 2004 better wines; as opposed to the 2005 lesser ones. A 2004 Rousseau Charmes instead of a 2005 Rousseau Gevrey for instance.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby David M. Bueker » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:18 pm

As has been said before be veyr careful with the 2003s. I've gotten pretty badly burned by even the better producers in '03 (e.g. Chevillon, Rousseau, Jadot, Mugneret-Gibourg...)
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Paul B. » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:16 pm

Covert wrote:no president should ever be elected to high office who can’t enjoy a glass of wine

Covert, I think you have a point. Wouldn't it be correct to say that many, many fanatics have also been teetotallers? It is as if they lack the kind of gracious love of life and hospitality that comes with having wine as a part of daily life. I'm sure it would be massively politically incorrect, but it would be fascinating if anyone did a social study examining the behavioural correlations between people who appreciate wine as food, art, etc. and those who aren't wired that way.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:45 pm

Paul B wrote: Covert, I think you have a point. Wouldn't it be correct to say that many, many fanatics have also been teetotallers? It is as if they lack the kind of gracious love of life and hospitality that comes with having wine as a part of daily life. I'm sure it would be massively politically incorrect, but it would be fascinating if anyone did a social study examining the behavioural correlations between people who appreciate wine as food, art, etc. and those who aren't wired that way.


There have been many fanatics who are abstainers. There have been many fanatics who fancied themselves as connoisseurs of food (and I'm sure wine) as well as art. The danger is when someone decides their particular preferrences are superior to others, as you seem to be doing.

I love wine, and I love many people who love wine. But I don't see any innate superiority.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Paul B. » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:53 pm

Dale Williams wrote:The danger is when someone decides their particular preferrences are superior to others, as you seem to be doing.

No implication of "superiority" - I don't know where you get that? - but a question of what correlations may exist in the main.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:01 pm

Wait, one group (the abstainers) are fanatics and lack "gracious love" and hospitality compared to the other group (yours), but there's no judgement of superiority? Gotcha.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Paul B. » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:10 pm

But that only holds true if you are making a value judgment yourself on which group is better ... :twisted:

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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Paul Winalski » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:14 pm

Jacques Levy wrote:All Charmes Chambertin at Premier Cru; just to get a point of reference


I'm confused. Charmes-Chambertin is a grand cru. That in part explains the outrageous prices, which unfortunately aren't out of line for grand cru Burgundy these days, I'm afraid.

Oh, for the days when a dollar bought 7 francs.

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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Jacques Levy » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:23 pm

Paul Winalski wrote:I'm confused. Charmes-Chambertin is a grand cru. That in part explains the outrageous prices, which unfortunately aren't out of line for grand cru Burgundy these days, I'm afraid.
-Paul W.


The main point I was trying to make was that for the same name Grand Cru, the vintage seems to count more than the producer in the pricing.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Dale Williams » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:33 pm

Paul Winalski wrote:
Jacques Levy wrote:All Charmes Chambertin at Premier Cru; just to get a point of reference


I'm confused. Charmes-Chambertin is a grand cru. That in part explains the outrageous prices, which unfortunately aren't out of line for grand cru Burgundy these days, I'm afraid.

Oh, for the days when a dollar bought 7 francs.

-Paul W.


Paul, I believe Jacques was saying these were all Charmes prices at Premier Cru (the Emeryville retailer).

When I was in France in 2000 I was getting about 7.3, so not so long ago.
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Re: 2005 Burgs; Prices are nuts!!

Postby Nathan Smyth » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:59 pm

Dan Donahue wrote:BTW you can blame the dollar and you can blame the producers, but most of the increase came from the importers.

I think that even most hard-core wine geeks would be shocked at what a vanishingly small percentage of the retail price tag makes it all the way back to the men [and women] who actually grow & harvest the grapes and vinify the fermented grape juice.

The rest of it is pocketed by thieves.
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