Bob Ross wrote:"That's not a good test."
Depends what you're trying to accomplish, Thomas. At a wine tasting, bring a bottle of Hearty Burgundy, and you can be pretty sure it will rank pretty low in the evening's voting.
At a double blind tasting, results might be unpredictable -- they can be fun but they are also lots of work. And, if you did a double blind and the Hearty Burgundy showed well -- well, that might reflect more on the tasters than the wines. I might not report the results ... or might not be permitted to do so.
But we all had great fun, mostly at the expense of the "wine expert" who brought the CdP. And, it sure tasted good to everyone that evening -- sort of the point of wine drinking in my book.
As you can tell, I didn't keep formal notes from the event -- partly I was focusing on cooking and hosting and having fun -- and partly because of the very reason you mention -- it was a bad test.
PS: how about a back and forth on "claret" on your site -- I'm waiting for some stuff from Australia on sulfites before posting my article on that subject. B.
Peter May wrote:Whatever wines or grapes are cheap. In the 70's Paul Masson 'Hearty Burgundy' (what a contradiction in terms) had Zinfandel in it. BTW, I liked it.
Bob Ross wrote:
The Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (IRC) at 26 U.S.C. 5388(c) defines each semi-generic name as a name of geographic significance that is also a designation of class and type for wine. The IRC further states that a semi-generic name may be used to designate wine of an origin other than that indicated by its name only if there appears, in direct conjunction with the designation, an appropriate appellation of origin disclosing the true place of origin and the wine so designated conforms to the standard of identity. The semi-generic names and the place of origin indicated by each name are:
2. "Claret" was never used in France to label any wine, Bordeaux or otherwise.
Maria Samms wrote:I have family in England, and they say that they call a Claret any light red table wine. If it's a nice Bordeaux, than they wouldn't call it a Claret, they would say it's a Bordeaux (or more likely they would call it by it's Appellation). From what I inferred, a claret is not a term of prestige over there.
Current usage obviously varies over here then.
Bob Ross wrote:Thanks for the input, Steve. I hadn't realized there were such strong feelings about the word "claret" among British wine drinkers.
It's awfully hard for me to see how a wine labeled "1971 Penfolds St Henri Claret" or "Coppola 2004 Diamond Claret - Red Wine" is offensive or even confusing to UK wine drinkers, or could hurt the sales of French wines in the UK.
Of course, Penfolds folded on the issue and change the name of the wine to "St Henri Shiraz", apparently voluntarily, in view of the impending EU/Australian trade deal.
But EU negotiators sold the British/French "claret" lovers down the river when it came to the US. "Burgundy" too for that matter -- the pleasures and confusions created by grandfathering! Always gives the negotiators a chance to make a deal -- no matter how inconsistent it appears to others.
Thanks again. Bob
Bob Ross wrote:I've now reviewed the EU rules, and the bottom line is really odd: Now the word "Claret" cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU, since Bordeaux wines were never so labeled.
But I honestly think you are deceiving yourselves if you believe there is any serious doubt over here as to what the word REALLY means over here. I invite you to do the searching of UK websites - forums and wine merchants - for yourself. I guarantee you will see a consistent picture emerge.
Bob Ross wrote:Your family's impression are consistent with the one of the meanings specified in the OED: "A name originally given (like F. vin clairet) to wines of yellowish or light red colour, as distinguished alike from ‘red wine’ and ‘white wine’; the contrast with the former ceased about 1600, and it was apparently then used for red wines generally, in which sense it is still, or was recently, dial."
Hoke wrote:I think where you stand depends on precisely where you think the center of the universe is.
steve.slatcher wrote:Maria Samms wrote:I have family in England, and they say that they call a Claret any light red table wine. If it's a nice Bordeaux, than they wouldn't call it a Claret, they would say it's a Bordeaux (or more likely they would call it by it's Appellation). From what I inferred, a claret is not a term of prestige over there.
Current usage obviously varies over here then.
Every winedrinker I know that would have an opinion on the matter would agree with Warren on this - Claret is a red Bordeaux - pure and simple and irrespective of quality. (Though the term "luncheon claret" is a somewhat disparaging term.) And it emphatically is still used.
Some quotes quickly harvested from a UK-based board: "This is a vintage I really like, but it seems to be becoming increasingly unfashionable...to my mind they're really classic clarets with a superb savoury edge, and are only just starting to come around at the top level." (referring to Ch Margaux). "Blood red optic with a light pink rim, the nose was classic Claret" (referring to Pontet-Canet ). "Mature burg, mature claret, Trevallon (91), 98 Eileen Hardy shiraz." "Ribeye steak rare, nice mature claret if I wasn't paying might go for a Mouton 1945."
I am not too surprised to see protected wine names that are not used in the country of origin. Britain is still a large market for French wines, and France obviously would not want to lose part of it to "imposter" clarets. And we Brits want to know what we are drinking if we are offered Claret. Claret is not alone in this regard BTW - Sherry, Hock and Rhine are also on the list of protected names - all English language versions of continental wine names.
The surprise for me was to see that Moselle wine comes from France
Maria Samms wrote:My husband is from the UK and so is his family, so it was their opinion regarding the term claret, that I was sharing. He said it was any light red table wine, and that when he thinks of a claret, he thinks of something that is a "house wine". He likened it to when an American goes out to a mediocre restaurant and you order a "glass of red wine", you most likely get a merlot...usually of fair/poor quality.
Thomas wrote:I remember on my first trip to England, at a hotel in London I decided to find out what Hock wine was. Ordered a bottle and the waiter comes over with a Liebfraumilch, the one we knew over here (this was 1975).
I asked the waiter why it is called Hock. He said he didn't know; he knew only that it "really isn't veddy good, sir."
steve.slatcher wrote:Do you mean "cannot be used to label any wine made in the EU and sold in the US"? The term Claret is certainly used on Bordeaux bottles over here.
Hoke wrote:And that is, that 'Hock' is a very English bastardization, the English being quite cavalier with taking other language's words and mucking them up almost beyond recognition, taken from one of the more well-known white wines from Germany, that from Hochheimer.
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