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Victorwine wrote:Like Steve I don’t think that decanting or aeration would cause tannins in a “young wine” to “soften” (or undergo a chemical change per say). For this to happen a lot more time might be necessary and a “change” in color intensity (“browning” or “bricking”) might have to be observed. (After decanting many “young” red wines I never immediately noticed, “browning” or even a change in color intensity). Other chemical reactions might occur much more rapidly, some chemical compounds might easily take on oxygen others might even easily give it up. So technically you are not really “removing” it from the wine (or stopping its formation) but allowing certain “smelly” compounds come to the forefront and others take a “backseat”.
Dale Williams
Compassionate Connoisseur
11151
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Mark Lipton wrote:Tannins undergo many polymerization reactions, gradually increasing in size, until eventually they fall out of solution as sediment (taking this discussion full circle, I am relying on Peynaud for some of this information).
Steve Slatcher wrote:Mark Lipton wrote:Tannins undergo many polymerization reactions, gradually increasing in size, until eventually they fall out of solution as sediment (taking this discussion full circle, I am relying on Peynaud for some of this information).
It's not really relevent to your main point, Mark, but I understand this story is a gross simplifications. Different tannins increase and decrease in size at various stages of aging, and IIRC it seems most likely that the smaller ones give the greatest impression of astringency. See http://www.wineanorak.com/tannins.htm . Again the references to original research are a bit vague unfortunately, but it should be possible to track down.
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Dale Williams
Compassionate Connoisseur
11151
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)
Steve Slatcher wrote: And any evidence on the effect of decanting that is not performed under controlled conditions (in particular, blind) must be take with a huge pinch of salt. I hope no one here takes offence - none is intended, and I apply the same standard to any conclusions I personally make about wine. And at the end of the day, the scientific truth is of little importance. .
Bill Spohn
He put the 'bar' in 'barrister'
9520
Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:31 pm
Vancouver BC
Dale Williams wrote:Steve Slatcher wrote: And any evidence on the effect of decanting that is not performed under controlled conditions (in particular, blind) must be take with a huge pinch of salt. I hope no one here takes offence - none is intended, and I apply the same standard to any conclusions I personally make about wine. And at the end of the day, the scientific truth is of little importance. .
Steve, don't think anyone thinks you are condescending. But the idea that there is "Scientific truth " that " it is only faulty wines that need to be exposed to air before drinking. " supposes that everyone's tastes are similar and there is a right and wrong conclusion re tastes.
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Dale Williams wrote:Steve, don't think anyone thinks you are condescending. But the idea that there is "Scientific truth " that " it is only faulty wines that need to be exposed to air before drinking. " supposes that everyone's tastes are similar and there is a right and wrong conclusion re tastes.Steve Slatcher wrote:But the idea that there is "Scientific truth " that " it is only faulty wines that need to be exposed to air before drinking. " supposes that everyone's tastes are similar and there is a right and wrong conclusion re tastes.
Victorwine wrote:Hi Mark,
You are assuming that I “decant” normally? Decanting by definition is a way of removing the wine from its sediment and aerating it. “Racking” is basically the same thing.
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Howie Hart
The Hart of Buffalo
6389
Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm
Niagara Falls, NY
Hoke
Achieving Wine Immortality
11420
Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am
Portland, OR
Howie Hart wrote:While perusing the above discussion, my thoughts go back to Victor's mentioning racking. In home wine making, racking is siphoning the wine through a flexible tubing to another container, leaving sediment behind in the original container. If the end of the tubing is placed at the bottom of the receiving container, the wine is exposed to very little air. One could use this same technique to transfer wine from a bottle, thus removing the sediment without aeration. A simple apparatus could be constructed. Has anyone ever done or heard of such a thing?
Howie Hart wrote:While perusing the above discussion, my thoughts go back to Victor's mentioning racking. In home wine making, racking is siphoning the wine through a flexible tubing to another container, leaving sediment behind in the original container. If the end of the tubing is placed at the bottom of the receiving container, the wine is exposed to very little air. One could use this same technique to transfer wine from a bottle, thus removing the sediment without aeration. A simple apparatus could be constructed. Has anyone ever done or heard of such a thing?
Howie Hart
The Hart of Buffalo
6389
Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm
Niagara Falls, NY
Steve Slatcher wrote:Mark
But if the direction is mainly in the direction of longer tannin molecules, and it is generally the longer ones that are more astringent (as stated by Leigh Francis in Jamie's article), you would expect wines to get more astringent with age. I am not sure what, but SOMETHING is incorrect in the generalisations.
Mark Lipton wrote:
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Mark Lipton wrote:What strikes me about Peynaud's experiments is that he's collecting only two data points. Why sample the wine only at opening and then after several hours of exposure to air? What would it be like after 5 min? 10? 30?
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