Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker
Hoke
Achieving Wine Immortality
11420
Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am
Portland, OR
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Hoke wrote:Chirping in, because for once I don't have a whole lot to say, except that I gave up long, long ago on expecting anything to ever come out of any German attempts to establish a reasonable and functional system or hierarchy of German wine classification.
I can look back and say now that I seemed prescient.
Paul Winalski wrote:Germany is notorious for making life difficult for the wine consumer, when it comes to classification schemes.
The Burgundians cast similar massive roadblocks to our ability to grok their wine, granted. But they take a disorganized French approach to obfuscation. The problem with the Germans is that, when they're hell-bent on making it difficult for the consumer to understand anything about their wines, they are ORGANIZED and DISCIPLINED about how they make thing difficult--in a way the French are too disorganized to accomplish.
I'm talking about this new schema--that I know ZERO about--that apparently has arisen recently.
I actually grokked the 1971 German wine laws. Maybe they weren't perfect, but they were comprehensible.
Now there are these new categories such as GG and Estate and Wotan-knows-what--outside the 1971 Qualitateiswien and Praedikat regulations.
And I, who thought I understood German wine, find myself back at square one, wondering TWF this is all about.
And, more importantly (both for me and for those who are marketing German wine), I'm wondering why the F I should care about the new classification crap, or should I just continue to buy based on QdP classification?
From my perspective, the German wine producers have just put another major roadblock in the way of my understanding and appreciating their wines--as if there weren't already enough such barriers in the way.
Can someone explain to a person who understood the former QbA/QdP system what the new order in German wines is all about?
My brain hurts.
-Paul W.
Bill Hooper wrote:David, forget about Classic and Selection. That you see it anymore at all surprises me because I NEVER EVER EVER see wine labeled like that in Germany anymore. Dead. Charta? Also pretty much dead -the new VDP system effectively replaces all of that and almost every great Rheingau estate (and a lot of very-less-than-great Rheingau estates) are in the VDP. Georg Breuer is one of the few glaring exceptions.
Yes, some non-VDP producers will probably continue with Spätlese Trocken etc. (and so will VDP member Koehler-Ruprecht because they like to make dry Kabinett, Spätlese and Auslese from the Kallstadter Saumagen every year and their customers have come to expect it –but they are an anomaly) Starting in vintage 2012, VDP members (other than K-R) have agreed not to use Prädikat for dry wines. Like the other David points out: for Gutsweine, some Feinherb-styled wines will probably continue to be made from regions like the Nahe, Mosel, and Rheingau where market demand (mostly export) exists.
It is interesting that Austria doesn't have these classification problems despite the German language barrier. Granted, Riesling plays a very small role in regard to quantity there. Alsace gets criticized a lot for the role that sweetness plays in its wines though. What is really interesting is that hardly anyone complains about not knowing what to expect from a bottle of Loire Chenin Blanc.
Cheers,
Bill
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Lars Carlberg wrote: It should be noted, too, that Heymann-Löwenstein and Van Volxem were forerunners by avoiding Prädikats for their dry-tasting wines even before joining the VDP and, at that time, no other VDP Mosel-Saar-Ruwer members classified in a similar way.
A lot of VDP members gave up their single-vineyard Kabinett and Spätlese trocken bottlings against their wishes.
Tim York wrote:Lars Carlberg wrote: It should be noted, too, that Heymann-Löwenstein and Van Volxem were forerunners by avoiding Prädikats for their dry-tasting wines even before joining the VDP and, at that time, no other VDP Mosel-Saar-Ruwer members classified in a similar way.
A lot of VDP members gave up their single-vineyard Kabinett and Spätlese trocken bottlings against their wishes.
Can you explain why VDP makes such a big thing about avoiding Prädikats? I personally would understand what's going on better if the Prädikat categories were maintained and were mentioned on a back label as used to be the case at the end of the 90s with, for example, Bürklin-Wolf's up-market "dry" bottlings. I find very helpful the Kabinett or Spätlese trocken labelling and even Auslese trocken though I'd want to check the alcoholic strength of the last.
Tim York wrote:Lars Carlberg wrote: It should be noted, too, that Heymann-Löwenstein and Van Volxem were forerunners by avoiding Prädikats for their dry-tasting wines even before joining the VDP and, at that time, no other VDP Mosel-Saar-Ruwer members classified in a similar way.
A lot of VDP members gave up their single-vineyard Kabinett and Spätlese trocken bottlings against their wishes.
Can you explain why VDP makes such a big thing about avoiding Prädikats? I personally would understand what's going on better if the Prädikat categories were maintained and were mentioned on a back label as used to be the case at the end of the 90s with, for example, Bürklin-Wolf's up-market "dry" bottlings. I find very helpful the Kabinett or Spätlese trocken labelling and even Auslese trocken though I'd want to check the alcoholic strength of the last.
David M. Bueker wrote:Lars,
Terry tries to import feinherb and halbtrocken wines, but few shops buy them. I always have to special order them.
Bob Parsons Alberta wrote:Bill mentions Loire Chenin Blanc. I do not want to go there but excellent point!
Bill Hooper wrote:Thanks Lars. If you think about it, the Prädikat system is very beneficial to producers on the Mosel and Mittelrhein (and those from the Rheingau to a lesser degree). I don’t have to tell you that many of them have very small holdings (sometimes as little as 2-3 ha) and producing a Kabinett, Spätlese, *,**,*** Auslese, BA, and TBA is one way of expanding your range and hitting many different price-points. –especially if you only have one grape (Riesling) planted.
Cheers,
Bill
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Lars Carlberg wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:Lars,
Terry tries to import feinherb and halbtrocken wines, but few shops buy them. I always have to special order them.
My experience has been different. The importer has to be behind the wines. But then again, the NYC market is more sophisticated.
Bill Hooper wrote:Bob Parsons Alberta wrote:Bill mentions Loire Chenin Blanc. I do not want to go there but excellent point!
Thanks Bob. I do find it odd that there just isn't the same discussion (sometimes heated) about Savennieres and Vouvray Moelleux and which style is 'best' or best-suited to Chenin Blanc, though seemingly everyone has an opinion about Riesling.
David M. Bueker wrote:Lars Carlberg wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:Lars,
Terry tries to import feinherb and halbtrocken wines, but few shops buy them. I always have to special order them.
My experience has been different. The importer has to be behind the wines. But then again, the NYC market is more sophisticated.
Whoops...there goes another little slip of what you really think...
Lars Carlberg wrote:Bill Hooper wrote:Bob Parsons Alberta wrote:Bill mentions Loire Chenin Blanc. I do not want to go there but excellent point!
Thanks Bob. I do find it odd that there just isn't the same discussion (sometimes heated) about Savennieres and Vouvray Moelleux and which style is 'best' or best-suited to Chenin Blanc, though seemingly everyone has an opinion about Riesling.
Indeed. It's a point that I often make in discussing this issue too. Vouvray has sec, demi-sec, and moelleux, plus sec tendre, which is similar to feinherb. The one difference is the predicates.
Bill Hooper wrote:
A lot of producers are also trying to simplify the range of offerings. Not many producers want a wine list with 40 different wines on it- It gets redundant to list a kabi, Spätlese and Auslese trocken from 6 different vineyards.
Cheers,
Bill
Kelly Young wrote:Bill Hooper wrote:
A lot of producers are also trying to simplify the range of offerings. Not many producers want a wine list with 40 different wines on it- It gets redundant to list a kabi, Spätlese and Auslese trocken from 6 different vineyards.
Cheers,
Bill
But I thought part of the whole idea of fine wine, certainly for most folks who value the idea of terroir (sorry I know that's a whole 'nother discussion), is to differentiate the Dieserkleinishceweinberg Sonnenuhr Auslese Trocken from the Dasandereweinberg Himmelreich Auslese Trocken.
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Kelly Young wrote:Bill Hooper wrote:
A lot of producers are also trying to simplify the range of offerings. Not many producers want a wine list with 40 different wines on it- It gets redundant to list a kabi, Spätlese and Auslese trocken from 6 different vineyards.
Cheers,
Bill
But I thought part of the whole idea of fine wine, certainly for most folks who value the idea of terroir (sorry I know that's a whole 'nother discussion), is to differentiate the Dieserkleinishceweinberg Sonnenuhr Auslese Trocken from the Dasandereweinberg Himmelreich Auslese Trocken.
David M. Bueker wrote:
Kelly,
Having three trockens from the same site does not really advance the terroir argument much more than 1 would. That's especially true when all grapes are getting so ripe these days. Kabinett is now what used to be auslese anyway.
Lars,
Mostly a little sarcasm, but you do imply that folks from NY are sophisitcated enough to enjoy the drier wines (or perhaps just want to enjoy them...hmm), while the rest of us hicks...
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