Quality mevushal wine list ?

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Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elchonon Hellinger » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:35 pm

Guys (sober and not)

The owner at harbor grill asked if I could tap in to my wino friends for a list of the best mevushal wines.

I was thinking though, lets start a kosher sommelier service, in conjunction with any hashgacha, the sommelier is the wine mashgiach.. so you train sommelier's that are mashgichim on the wine too..and its a service, the resturant pays the sommelier copanny
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Gabriel Geller » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:51 pm

- Herzog Special Reserve series (Syrah, Cab/Zin/Syrah, Cabernet Alexander Valley and Chardonnay Russian River as well as Late Harvest Riesling and Chenin Blanc for dessert).

- Hagafen

- Shiloh
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby David Raccah » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:05 pm

Chateau de Parsac Montagne-St-Emilion was a good option - but not for the 2010 vintage.
2010 Tour Seran
2010 Château Bellerives Dubois
Drappier
Some of the Weinstock reserve wines (Alicante Bouschet, Petite Sirah, and sometimes the Cabernet)
2010 Chateau Thenac- Fleur du Perigord
2007 Chateau Fourcas Dupre
Baron Edmond de Rothschild, Haut Medoc
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elie Poltorak » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:08 pm

2010 Recanati Shiraz
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elchonon Hellinger » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:15 pm

thanks... i gave him some port and sherry and now he's my best friend LMAO...
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby David Raccah » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:22 pm

Indeed Elie - Reca started mevu-ing some of the diamond series wines - THEY ARE not as good as the unmevu-ed wines that are available in Israel. I was actually quite shocked when I tasted them in America and then tasted them in Israel - not as good here, better there.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elie Poltorak » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:36 pm

David Raccah wrote:Indeed Elie - Reca started mevu-ing some of the diamond series wines - THEY ARE not as good as the unmevu-ed wines that are available in Israel. I was actually quite shocked when I tasted them in America and then tasted them in Israel - not as good here, better there.

Maybe that's why I gave the Cab a D+. Maybe mine was mevu'd. It tasted really off. The mevu shiraz is nice though. Way overoaked and overripe but the heft carries it off well and it's a fun wine for ~$14. Tastes a bit like vanilla ice cream :lol:
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yaakov B » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:31 pm

Shilo shor
La tour pavee bordeaux
Teperberg silver cabernet
Château de la clare (I think its mevushal)
Herzog reserve cabernet
Hagafen

Interesting sommelier idea. There really needs to be a solution to the restaurant wine issue.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elchonon Hellinger » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:40 pm

Yaakov B wrote:Shilo shor
La tour pavee bordeaux
Teperberg silver cabernet
Château de la clare (I think its mevushal)
Herzog reserve cabernet
Hagafen

Interesting sommelier idea. There really needs to be a solution to the restaurant wine issue.


Absolutely, why the hell would I pay 40$ for a bottle of barkan? I pretty much only dine out in places that let you BYOB.. and mozart mostly waives the corkage fee's.

Oh biyamina has a mevushal no?
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yaakov B » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:55 pm

Yes, binyamina reserve merlot. I've seen it mevushal and non-mevushal. And its an ok wine.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Adam M » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:18 pm

The Cave
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby David Raccah » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:30 am

Adam M is posting with a fury! Where were u my man? I would never buy the Cave at a restaurant, but agree that it is a nice mevu wine.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elchonon Hellinger » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:57 am

David Raccah wrote:Adam M is posting with a fury! Where were u my man? I would never buy the Cave at a restaurant, but agree that it is a nice mevu wine.


Sure because they wouldent air it for you, and would rip you off, I wonder how non kosher restaurants deal with decanting ?
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Adam M » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:17 am

Guys, makeup your mind. Do you want a quality wine list or what? I, too, would never dare buy this wine in a restaurant. It is $180 at prime grill, for example. But many would. And I have arranged to have it at my shul's annual Lag Baomer dinner in several occasions and it was superb out of the bottle
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Gabriel Geller » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:35 am

Elchonon Hellinger wrote:
David Raccah wrote:Adam M is posting with a fury! Where were u my man? I would never buy the Cave at a restaurant, but agree that it is a nice mevu wine.


Sure because they wouldent air it for you, and would rip you off, I wonder how non kosher restaurants deal with decanting ?


Aerator pourer and any decent self-respecting restaurant would provide a decanter carafe on request.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Adam M » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:33 pm

Ive never dined at a restaurant with a decent wine menu that didn't have a decanter. Many also have premium glasses upon request.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Isi M » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:09 pm

Adam M wrote:The Cave


Is The Cave mevushal ?? :shock:

The real question is can you have in the same sentence the words "quality" and "mevushal" ?!
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:16 pm

Isi - that isn't really a question anymore. It is pretty easy to find quality mevushal wines (and frankly has been for a while with the Hagafen Prix and some of the Herzog Special Reserve Wines). Binyamina made a mevushal and non-mevushal version of the 2007 Cave. Shilo is also starting to produce some high-quality mevushal wines. Obviously most high end kosher wines are not mevushal, but as technology continues to advance and the chareidi wine consumers get more sophisticated, I suspect we will see a proliferation of mevushal high end wines.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elie Poltorak » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:36 pm

Yossie Horwitz wrote:Isi - that isn't really a question anymore. It is pretty easy to find quality mevushal wines (and frankly has been for a while with the Hagafen Prix and some of the Herzog Special Reserve Wines). Binyamina made a mevushal and non-mevushal version of the 2007 Cave. Shilo is also starting to produce some high-quality mevushal wines. Obviously most high end kosher wines are not mevushal, but as technology continues to advance and the chareidi wine consumers get more sophisticated, I suspect we will see a proliferation of mevushal high end wines.


Yossie:
I don't think the issue is so cut and dry. Hagafen are the only ones who make their high-end, cellar-worthy wines mevushal only. Herzog's high-end age-worthy wines are generally NOT mevushal. The Cave and Shilo come in both mevu and not mevu versions, and the jury is still out on the long-term viability of the Mevu versions. I suspect the non-Mevu versions are recognizably superior. (I seem to recall a chat with David and Gary L regarding setting up a blind comparison taste.)
Finally, I fail to see the connection with the Charedi market. To the contrary, mevushal wines are in demand by restaurants and for social events with non-Jews/non-Shomer Shabbos. Both of those would depend more on the MO market than the chareidi. Not to mention that some charedim (I believe litvish) are stringent to make kidush only on non-mevu wine, making mevu wine less attractive to them.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm

A restaurant doesn't have to be concerned with long term aging, so not sure that is relevant and Herzog's Special Reserve wines are mostly mevushal and definitely in the high-quality range (excluding their uber premium wines like the Gen 8, To Kalon and Chalk Hill. I'vebdone side by side tastings for most of the Shiloh line and there is little difference. When tasting them in the US, the difference was noticeable for some of the wines.

The relevance is simply that, restaurants aside, its the Chareidi market that requires mevushal wines. Even in restaurants, its the OUs stringency that causes this requirement, evidenced among other ways, by the prevalence of acceptable (other than to the chareidi population) hechsherim allowing restaurants in Israel to serve non-mevushal wines.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elie Poltorak » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:41 am

Yossie Horwitz wrote:A restaurant doesn't have to be concerned with long term aging, so not sure that is relevant and Herzog's Special Reserve wines are mostly mevushal and definitely in the high-quality range (excluding their uber premium wines like the Gen 8, To Kalon and Chalk Hill. I'vebdone side by side tastings for most of the Shiloh line and there is little difference. When tasting them in the US, the difference was noticeable for some of the wines.

The relevance is simply that, restaurants aside, its the Chareidi market that requires mevushal wines. Even in restaurants, its the OUs stringency that causes this requirement, evidenced among other ways, by the prevalence of acceptable (other than to the chareidi population) hechsherim allowing restaurants in Israel to serve non-mevushal wines.


Sorry Yossie but now you're way off mark. Mevushal is not in ANY sense a stringency so it has nothing whatsoever to do with Charedim. As I've posted previously, in Israel even the most Charedi hechsherim allow non-mev because they have shomer shabbos waiters! The problem isn't a stringency by some hechsher (interesting that you cite OU, which isn't quite "charedi"), but rather the fact that restaurants in the U.S. simply aren't interested in the headache of having all the bussing done by shomrei shabos! I discussed the issue with rabbis at national hechsherim and they said they'd have no problem giving a hechsher for non-mev if the proper safeguards were in place to prevent accidental touching of wine glasses by non shomer shabos waiters/busboys.

To cite specific examples, Basil was supposed to serve non mevu under the OK (after an initial training period when only mevu was served) but the management chickened out. They decided that the clientele was satsified with the mevu wines and it just wasn't worth the headache! There was another restaurant under the OK that went through the same process several years ago. Also, I believe (not 100% sure) that Levana's used to serve non-mevu under the OU.

BTW, the Special Reserve is Herzog's mid-range line. The SVs are hardly uber premium (that would be the Clone 6 and Gen 8)--they're the high-end of Herzog's offerings--and they're not mevu either. The Chalk Hill is the only high-end Herzog that IS mevu.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Elie Poltorak » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:46 am

Yossie Horwitz wrote:A restaurant doesn't have to be concerned with long term aging, so not sure that is relevant and Herzog's Special Reserve wines are mostly mevushal and definitely in the high-quality range (excluding their uber premium wines like the Gen 8, To Kalon and Chalk Hill. I'vebdone side by side tastings for most of the Shiloh line and there is little difference. When tasting them in the US, the difference was noticeable for some of the wines.

The relevance is simply that, restaurants aside, its the Chareidi market that requires mevushal wines. Even in restaurants, its the OUs stringency that causes this requirement, evidenced among other ways, by the prevalence of acceptable (other than to the chareidi population) hechsherim allowing restaurants in Israel to serve non-mevushal wines.


Finally, your statement that restaurants don't have to be concerned with aging (which I disagree with btw, as a good restaurant should have wines that are at their prime--not what was just released), only proves my point that at this time, mevu wines are still a niche primarily for the restaurant market.
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yossie Horwitz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:48 am

We are just going to have to agree to disagree here. My "facts" are somewhat different than yours...
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Re: Quality mevushal wine list ?

Postby Yakov F » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 am

Sorry Yossie but now you're way off mark. Mevushal is not in ANY sense a stringency


Elie,

I am very sorry to point out once again that you are uninformed on the halachic facts. You have misstated before in other threads as well. Current kashrut supervision practices are a reflection of just that - current halachic practices. And again - since you write with great generalization, so do I.

I can start quoting the most prominent halachic sources over the centuries as well as the major leading contemporary sources but again, this is not the forum for halachic discussions on these issues.

I do however highly recommend that you study them before posting in the future.


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