Paul Winalski wrote:Well, I can offer the experience of my last two dinners with my mother. For Thanksgiving we had 1959 Collette Gros Clos de Vougeot. For Christmas we had 1990 Roumier Bonnes Mares..
Rahsaan wrote:See now you're just bragging
Paul Winalski wrote:Rahsaan wrote:See now you're just bragging
Well, yes and no.
I have seen a group similarity amongst various producers' Clos de Vougeot, and a similar common profile for Bonnes Mares, or Chambertin. In many cases the same producers make all those wines, so you can see what is the vineyard character (terroir) versus the grape character (they're all pinot noir)..
Rahsaan wrote:Quite frankly I don't think most people know enough to really tease out these differences. So much of what we learn is based on limited samples from a narrow range of producers that frame 'terroir' in ways that may not be very accurate.
Peter May wrote:If we're talking varietal then not only must we compare wines which are 100% of that variety (and not 'topped up' with up with a legal 15% of something else), but also the same clone.
Pinot Noir is not the same as Pinot Noir if they're different clones or different blends of various clones.
Paul Winalski wrote:Otherwise, it's mainly a matter of varietal character, not terroir (read--I think that the California AVAs are mostly BS). And when we talk about wines from the hot regions, you don't even get varietal character anymore--just generic red wine.
Steve Slatcher wrote: I am not sure I agree, Peter. Surely it is perfectly reasonable to compare any bottles that have Pinot Noir on the label, and arrive at a concept of Pinot Noirness, while accepting that other variables (clones, minor additions of other grapes, terroir) may be adding some noise?
David Creighton wrote:then we apply that to burgundy. the producer has no idea what 'varietal' character means...
Hoke wrote:The one and only thing I've learned absolutely, without question, from all of this? I need to do more research.
Brian K Miller wrote:My two cents: I think terroir and typicite are certainly important, but at least in California winemaking decisions trump these factors in the modern California wine market. I'll pull out two examples: Signorello and Darioush. Two Stag's Leap AVA wineries right next to each other with significant estate plantings. The wines taste utterly different. (Signorello can be awesome and Darioush the epitome of fruit-bomb-oak-milkshake).
Too many examples of this issue.
David Creighton wrote:but in a sense this is a very new world discussion. we think of the variety that is on the label and the place that is on the label and try to ferret out how much of each is in the bottle. then we apply that to burgundy. the producer has no idea what 'varietal' character means. he places gevry or givry or whatever on his label and expects it to taste like that - just that. and that is what the authorities expect as well. and me.