David Raccah wrote:They could care less about supervision in America, if it is kosher you are good, so leave that one aside.
David Raccah wrote:Elie - OU or OK, what else matters? There have been some Israeli and Chilean wines that have appeared on the market with Israeli supervision only, but I have gone to many stores in NY - if it is in the store people buy it. Rarely do they even check. The only real worry recently has been shmitta wines for Israel wines, otherwise - OU/OK/or Badatz, etc - meaning - who cares?
Long gone are the days of Triangle K or the such,
Craig Winchell wrote:Elie, just a quick point. The OU's shitta is well above Rav Moshe's. I've never seen a wine lechatchila use Rav Moshe's, and I cannot even imagine it bedieved.
Craig Winchell wrote:I re-reading what I posted yesterday, I am not sure I made my point. None of the shittas normally used for wine require wine to reach the boiling point-- as I said, even the Tzelemer's shitta, though higher than the OU's temperature, is not boiling for most wines. There are poskim who require actual boiling, but I don't think there are any commercial wines being made under those poskim. Therefore, the differences in the shittas currently in use are just about meaningless, except for the KAJ, which requires an open system (with vapor leaking out). I therefore don't think of the Tzelemer's as a "higher standard", but just a higher temperature, still not boiling. It seems that above the minimal temperature required to cook something (Sous-vide cooking will cook meat at quite low temperatures) and below actual boiling, the temperatures required by the different poskim are quite arbitrary.
Adam M wrote:Awards that we receive are sometimes very meaningful, even life defining. Others are less impactful, even utterly insignificant to the course of one's life.
Craig and Elie - I hereby anoint each of you with the award for the longest-standing esoteric discussion of the Jewish laws relating to wine and the organizations that apply them on this forum. The panel of judges has carefully considered other posts on this forum and have unanimously concluded that the competition was not even close.
Mazal tov on your accomplishment and enjoy your award!
1. The OU does in fact rely on Rav Moshe's shita:
"Contemporary poskim address two major questions about Yayin Mevushal (cooked wine). The first is: To what temperature must the wine have been heated to classify it as “cooked”? This is a subject of dispute. The OU’s policy is to follow the opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein and require a cooking temperature of 175 degrees F. The second question is: Can we consider pasteurized wine to be Mevushal? Maran Hagaon Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and [l’havdil bein chayyim l’chayyim] Rav Elyashiv maintain (for different reasons) that wine is not to be considered Mevushal merely by dint of being pasteurized. The prevalent practice in America is to follow the opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein, who maintains that pasteurized wine is indeed Mevushal."
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/commo ... sekeepers/
This is a serious machlokes with the gedolei haposkim having weighed in with various opinions. I'm not aware of any shita that wine must reach a rolling boil (ma'ale ababuos) to be considered mevushal. The question is, how hot is considered "cooked." The majority opinion of rishonim is that it must be nechsar--some must be lost to evaporation. (The minority opinion is that any "heated" wine is mevushal even if it's not nechsar.) Rav Moshe's opinion is a big chidush as he extrapolates from hilchos shabos where yad soledes is considered mevushal to wine, where it must be nechsar. Most poskim require that it reach a point where it begins to simmer--i.e., evaporate rapidly. The debate among poskim (aside from Rav Moshe and those--like Rav Auerebach and Rav Elyashiv--who hold that the color and/or taste of the wine must be affected) is at what temperature is there sufficient evaporation to be considered nechsar.
(Regarding what you said about l'chatchila/b'dieved, Rav Moshe cites 3 different temperatures for yad soledes l'chumra: 160, 165, and 175. Interestingly, OU follows the most stringent when it comes to wine even though OU follows 165 for shabos and kashering through iruy.)
Elie Poltorak wrote:Another difference between hechsherim is whether they allow reias aku"m--for a non-Jew to see the wine prior to bottling. According to Kabbala, wine seen by a non-Jew may not be used for sacramental purposes (kidush, havdala, bircat hamazon, etc.). As far as I know, the major kashrus organizations in the U.S. do not follow this stringency, although the mashgichim in specific locations may require it. For instance, although OU doesn't require it, Capcanes and Elvi are made without being seen by non-Jews due to requirements by the local (Chabad) mashgichim. Also, Israeli wine with a reliable hechsher is almost always made without reias aku"m (since of course it's much easier there on a practical level).
what about the QPR conversation
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