"Mevushal" is now cool in Lodi

[Andrew Breskin]

Does your wine taste like onions cooked in a beef stew? The answer is mevushal. Read on:

http://www.lodiwine.com/blog/flash-of-n ... -lodi-wine

[Craig Winchell]

The thing is that it is unknown what the kashrus agencies will think of flash detente, whether they will accept it as bishul. I would tend to doubt it.

[David Raccah]

Indeed I do not think this is legal, doing the flash that early, but as Benyo asked me once we we spoke about his, is why is grape juice allowed to be bishop this way?

David

[Craig Winchell]

For 1 thing, Concord grapes, high in pectin, require heating for decent pressing, and the juice comes out of the press hot, and possibly hot enough to qualify as mevushal. Because there is no good way to measure the temperature of distinct particulates like grapes except 1 at a time, but juice can be subjected to turbulence to mix, then in-line recording thermometers can accurately measure the temperature of the flowing liquid. But the flash detente, on the other hand, while it raises the temperature of the intact grape (presumably it can be set to greater than 185 degrees F), the liquid comes out cool.

[Gabriel Geller]

How is it different from the way Hagafen (and I guess Herzog with the special reserve) 'mevushalize" their wines?

[David Raccah]

How is it different from the way Hagafen (and I guess Herzog with the special reserve) 'mevushalize" their wines?

They mevushal the fermented wine, not must, and it comes out cold, though as the wine passes through the heat exchanger it ones in old and leaves cold but inside is heated to 180 or so degrees.

David

[Isaac Chavel]

And I thought, from the discussions last spring/summer, that their (Hagafen & Herzog) secret was flash-heating before pasteurization. My memory faulty?

Isaac

[David Raccah]

And I thought, from the discussions last spring/summer, that their (Hagafen & Herzog) secret was flash-heating before pasteurization. My memory faulty?

Isaac

Isaac, Did you mean before bottling? Indeed Herzog, Hagafen, and others do flash-heat their wines early on, after fermentation, but well before malolactic fermentation (if not filtered away). Essentially, they flash the liquid as soon as the wine becomes wine. The poorer wines are flashed at bottling, as the desire there is to keep some wines unflashed (like in Israel), where almost all the wine sold there now has stopped being flashed (unless it is made for Badatz), but the wines sold for export are flashed. So they flash it as bottling, which is the WORST TIME possible to flash a wine.

David

[Craig Winchell]

Just a reminder that very few hashgachos accept 180 degrees F. Rav Moshe Feinstein allowed much lower, on the order of 175 or even less, but major hashgachos in the USA accept no less, lechatchila, than 185, and in Israel the standard may be about 191 (which is also the standard of the Tzelemer Rav, lechatchila, I seem to recall). And in the USA, most white wines undergo bishul (in the form of HTST Processing) at the must stage, whereas reds must wait because the plate heat exchangers do not allow particulates, such as skins and seeds, the way tube-in-shell heat exchangers do, but the plate exchangers are far more efficient.

[Isaac Chavel]

Thanks, David,

I knew it was early, was confused about exactly how early.

Isaac

[Elie Poltorak]

David:
Why would Badat"z require flashing? To the contrary, they wouldn't accept flashing as mevushal.