Putting things in perspective

Founded by the late Daniel Rogov, focusing primarily on wines that are either kosher or Israeli.

Re: Putting things in perspective

Postby Mike_F » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:38 am

Craig Winchell wrote:When the observant are civil towards the nonobservant, that is when there will be kedushas haAretz.


And vice versa, of course. That is the essence of the entire issue of life in this troubled country, or anywhere else for that matter. Thank you Craig.

best,

Mike
Of course we must be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.”
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Re: Putting things in perspective

Postby Craig Winchell » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:55 am

Yes, of course vice-versa. But it's gotta start somewhere.

Eli indeed has a point, if half the population actively keeps nominally kosher to a full extent. That may be so for the less educated/less sophisticated, but in my experience, the last types of products to become kosher in houses of increasing kashrus are cheese and wine. This was my own family's experience, as well as that of many people I know. Growing up, we had 4 sets of dishes (2 for Pesach), only bought kosher meat, and tried to always read ingredient labels. But we ate nonkosher cheese, drank nonkosher wine, and even local orthodox rabbis didn't make a big deal about that, though they didn't typically eat our cheese or drink our wine. These are things which typically are not kosher almost entirely due to takanah (of course, we didn't understand that at the time to justify it to ourselves, because we were not observant enough to require justification).

In Israel, where most of the winery principals and people doing the work in the wineries (not the vineyards, necessarily) are Jewish, it should be easier and less costly to make a winery kosher, without resorting to full-time staff of observant go-betweens. Are Jews who are not Shabbos observant to be treated as idol-worshippers (as those who actively thwart Shabbos observance must be, as they are definitely desecrating Shabbos), or as people who don't understand the importance of Shabbos observance? To a large extent, in chutz la'Aretz, such Jews are treated as the latter (although typically not in terms of wine kashrus, as a matter of policy, for a number of reasons). In Israel, there is widespread treatment as the former, due to the concept that things should be stricter on The Land due to kedushas haAretz. Perhaps there should be more effort to find kulahs to include, rather than exclude, less observant Jews. Perhaps the cost of wine kashrus, at least a nominal kashrus status, could legitimately decrease, affording greater access.
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Re: Putting things in perspective

Postby Gedalya P » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:51 am

I was enjoying the sharing of ideas on this thread when it took a turn into Hareidi bashing. I'm sorry, but I live in Israel, run a wine shop in a Dati community, and find your comments way off base. Are there mistakes made in the Dati community? Of course. Are there mistakes made in the nonreligious community? Of course. We're human- we mess up. But, we keep trying to fix them- that's the important part.
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Re: Putting things in perspective

Postby Gabriel Geller » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:57 am

Craig, as much as I personally like and support your idea and can see the many good reasons to allow less observant jews to be involved in the winemaking process, it is already hard enough to sell wines to people asking about the kashrut of the wine (I sell only kosher wines but any kashrut is good for me), with even such highly regarded authorities the likes of Rabbi Auerbach at GHW and Galil Mountain wineries being questioned by some people who sometimes limit themselves also to the very few wineries carrying the Badatz Eida Chareidit stamp (Netofa, Teperberg, Or Haganuz)... As well, I can't but only imagine what you felt like when told that your GAN EDEN wines would have to carry a "Not Kosher" label in Israel unless you paid for an additional Israel's Chief Rabbinate approved mashgiach. :shock:
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Re: Putting things in perspective

Postby Craig Winchell » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:45 am

Jgpersky, sorry if I got off on a bit of a rant. I am definitely not against Chareidim. Why, my oldest son is at a hespid for Rav Eliashiv Zt"l as I'm writing this- I would be too if not for my health problem. But when I get angry at the corruption of the Israeli system, Chareidim are easy targets because the visibly corrupt among them should know better. I could easily go off on a rant about nonreligious Israelis, but it is based upon negative feelings due to interaction with the large Israeli population in Los Angeles, and not in Israel. They infuriate me often, but they are in America. The only negative thing a nonobservant Israeli did to us in Israel was when a custom agent looked right at us and pocketed brand new 35 mm film from our belongings in our full view, knowing we could not do anything about it. We felt violated, of course.
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