Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker
Howie Hart
The Hart of Buffalo
6389
Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm
Niagara Falls, NY
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Carl Eppig
Our Maine man
4149
Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:38 pm
Middleton, NH, USA
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
We can see similar parallels in the Loire with Chenin Blanc (most notably Vouvray, which is rapidly getting drier as well)
David M. Bueker wrote:Bill,
Interesting post, but I need to make a couple of points:
1. You live in the epicenter of the dry Riesling revolution in Germany. It's not surprising at all that you cannot find sweet Riesling at retail in the Pfalz. Despite that, there are still producers who make it. Muller-Catoir, Minges, Eugen Muller, even Messmer make Riesling with residual sweetness. I have recent vintage von Buhl Spatlese in the cellar. German consumers don't drink it, so you won't see it.
2. There are stunning dry Rieslings and stunning sweet Rieslings. After tasting countless examples of each I would never say either style is less true or legitimate, and it would be terribly sad if we were reduced to just one of the two.
3. There's a lovely little "sweet spot" in halbtrocken/feinherb that is sadly ignored. I buy a lot of it when I can find it.
4. Your statement: "Relatively quick, warmish, gemütlich fermentations, from healthy, minimally processed, ripe (but not over-ripe) grapes have the very best chances of fermenting to dryness. The best, most quality conscious estates have always sought to achieve this standard" is interesting, but overreaches by a long shot. Your implication is that Egon Muller is not one of the "best, most quality conscious estates", nor is Prum. Johannes Leitz is left out in the cold, as is the esteemed Helmut Donnhoff. What about producers such as Theo haart (of Rheinhold Haart) or Tim Frohlich who also make sweet Riesling? Are they not quality conscious? The folks at Robert Weil will be very sad to learn that they are not quality conscious, never mind Willi Schaefer.
I meant that in an historical context. Almost everyone (but not all) uses stainless steel these days and temperature control to prolong fermentation and preserve fruit and flower aromas.
5. One of the recent legendary dry wines from the Rheingau, the 2002 Leitz Rudesheimer Berg Rottland Riesling Spatlese Trocken had more than a little botrytis. Stunning wine. Absolutely stunning. That's the first example that comes to mind, though I have had some others from Austria as well.
I’m sure that Johannes Leitz had to go to pretty extreme must clarification methods and multiple filtrations later to get that 2002 to ferment dry and appear clear in the bottle if there was significant botrytis. The question is how good would the wine have been without those treatments and less botrytis?
6. As far as stuck fermentations, I will refer you to the 1998 Muller-Catoir Haardter Burgergarten Riesling Spatlese Halbtrocken, which was indeed a stuck fermentation, and was sublime. In fact it apparently is still sublime. I believe Salil had some recently that was quite good.
Again, I was referring to stuck fermentations of the past. Technology (such as sterile filtration) exists these days to alleviate the risks of MLF or refermentation in bottle, both of which lead to disaster.
7. We can conclude with some certainty that things that became famous in the past did so with different material than the present. So much has changed in terms of vineyard and cellar practices, that what was great wine in 1850 is irrelevant to today other than as a curiosity.
8. There's nothing too macho about dry German Riesling, except the dogmatic judgments to justify its false supremacy. Let a thousand flowers bloom!
Howie Hart wrote:Thanks for this great post! I just finished bottling my locally grown Riesling - about 14 gallons - sweetened using sussreserve - half at 8g/L and half at 25 g/L.
Rahsaan wrote:Interesting writing.We can see similar parallels in the Loire with Chenin Blanc (most notably Vouvray, which is rapidly getting drier as well)
So are you saying that the demi-sec wines emerged at the same time in the 20th century as the off-dry German wines? And for similar reasons?
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Howie Hart
The Hart of Buffalo
6389
Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm
Niagara Falls, NY
I'm anxious myself. This is the first time I ever bottled wines with RS using sterile filtration instead of potassium sorbate. I'm hoping I don't have any surprises.Bill Hooper wrote:Nice Howie,
Let us know how they turned out. Btw, I'd be interested to know how well the NY Rieslings sell at different sweetness levels. Any idea?
Cheers,
Bill
David M. Bueker wrote:Please provide some actual examples of these great dry wines of yore. I've never had one. I've never even seen one older than the late 1950s. Historical context is great if it can be backed up with data. How many estates were making these great wines? More than a handful?
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Salil wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:Please provide some actual examples of these great dry wines of yore. I've never had one. I've never even seen one older than the late 1950s. Historical context is great if it can be backed up with data. How many estates were making these great wines? More than a handful?
I'm also curious to hear some of these names and estates. Would certainly be interesting to hunt down an old bottle or two from that era - if there are ever any specifics that would actually help in finding a few bottles in that style.
Interesting that there are a number of classic old sweeter styled Spatlese and Auslese from the mid 20th century that can still be found in various cellars or auctions, from the likes of Dr. Thanisch, Prum, Grunhaus, the various state domaines and some of the old classic Rhine estates such as Gustav Gessert or Schloss Schonborn... and yet these much-talked about dry wines never seem to show up anywhere.
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Fredrik L wrote:I have had more than hundreds of great German Rieslings older than 1970, and at least two dozen truly mesmerizing ones older than 1930. How many of these great wines, (that were very much talked about among the prosperous few), have been dry? You guessed it: zero.
Paul Winalski
Wok Wielder
8030
Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:16 pm
Merrimack, New Hampshire
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
David M. Bueker wrote:Fredrik L wrote:I have had more than hundreds of great German Rieslings older than 1970, and at least two dozen truly mesmerizing ones older than 1930. How many of these great wines, (that were very much talked about among the prosperous few), have been dry? You guessed it: zero.
What??? Zero??? That can't be true!!!
My experience with very old wines is not as extensive as yours, but I can match you for old dry wines!
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34367
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
David M. Bueker wrote:Paul,
I've had great trockens and halbtrockens. There's more than enough room for all styles. Bill's post touched off my extreme irritation with the VDP, and all their rules to make German wine better or easier, whih merely legislate stupidity and dogma.
Try a bottle of the Selbach-Oster Zeltinger Himmelriech Riesling Kabinett Halbtrocken. It's a reliably delicious wine that I can't get enough of.
Tim York wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:Paul,
I've had great trockens and halbtrockens. There's more than enough room for all styles. Bill's post touched off my extreme irritation with the VDP, and all their rules to make German wine better or easier, whih merely legislate stupidity and dogma.
Try a bottle of the Selbach-Oster Zeltinger Himmelriech Riesling Kabinett Halbtrocken. It's a reliably delicious wine that I can't get enough of.
I love real Kabinett, Feinherb and Halbtrocken when there is also delicious balancing acidity as well as a certain fleetness of foot but also welcome the increasing amount and quality of trocken, which for me is undeniably easier to match with food.
Having learned to read traditional German labelling, I find the additional layer of "simplification" imposed by VDP very confusing.
David M. Bueker wrote:Yet the fact that dry Riesling is popular in Germany does not mean it should be popular anywhere else. It is popular, though less so than in Germany itself. Perhaps there is a reason for this.
There exists a danger that some delicious wines will cease to exist. Some of this is due to weather (kabinett is nearly dead), and some due to the dry craze.
Users browsing this forum: Google IPMatch and 4 guests