Challenger(s) to GHW Yarden Katzrin Chardonnay?

[ChaimShraga]

Wow, I can't believe it's been five years already.

[Isaac Chavel]

This is to respond to Gabe more than to respond to Chaim Shraga.

I did not find not a problem with Rogov's scoring for the following reason:

I only drink kosher wine, so that put me out of comparing Rogov's scores with a wider world of critics. Second, he produced an ongoing encyclopedic review of kosher, especially Israeli wines, so his universe was sufficiently large to live within its confines to compare and contrast the wines within it --- whether different wines, or same wine and different vintages. Third, it was an ongoing enterprise, especially for those on the forum, as he shared his TN's online here and the old forum as he tasted; so that contributed to a more instinctive response to his work than would be produced only using his books or even his columns. So, after awhile, one simply gets used to his system and palate and knows the places where one's own evaluation differs from Rogov's.

I think that now that he is gone, the ongoing character of his work ended, the kosher drinkers look back at his work and start to realize more concretely how they actually responded to his work.

If you live in a wider world of wine as Chaim Shraga does then, of course, all bets are off as to whether Rogov's scoring was consistent across national boundaries.

[Gabriel Geller]

Lior,

What I'm saying is that I don't usually like unoaked Chardonnay that much but I don't hate that either. The Binyamina for example is very nice but not very interesting I thought, I prefer the "regular" oaked version. As to the Katzrin I personally don't find it overoaked and the last time I had it (last Purim) I found it very enjoyable (the '09). However less oaked Chardonnay such as the Recanati Reserve are also very nice and the Tishbi Estate '10 is not bad at all.

Anyway I need to try and set up and oaked chardonnay tasting with the Ella Valley, the Tzora and the Hevron Heights sometime soon.

Thank you all guys for your suggestions, very much appreciated!

Best,

GG

[Gabriel Geller]

This is to respond to Gabe more than to respond to Chaim Shraga.

I did not find not a problem with Rogov's scoring for the following reason:

I only drink kosher wine, so that put me out of comparing Rogov's scores with a wider world of critics. Second, he produced an ongoing encyclopedic review of kosher, especially Israeli wines, so his universe was sufficiently large to live within its confines to compare and contrast the wines within it --- whether different wines, or same wine and different vintages. Third, it was an ongoing enterprise, especially for those on the forum, as he shared his TN's online here and the old forum as he tasted; so that contributed to a more instinctive response to his work than would be produced only using his books or even his columns. So, after awhile, one simply gets used to his system and palate and knows the places where one's own evaluation differs from Rogov's.

I think that now that he is gone, the ongoing character of his work ended, the kosher drinkers look back at his work and start to realize more concretely how they actually responded to his work.

If you live in a wider world of wine as Chaim Shraga does then, of course, all bets are off as to whether Rogov's scoring was consistent across national boundaries.

Overall well said Isaac. I agree with most of your analysis.

[ChaimShraga]

What I'm saying is that I don't usually like unoaked Chardonnay that much but I don't hate that either.

I can understand that. Sometimes people think unoaked Chardonnay = Chablis, but that's not true and unless you grow grapes under environments similar to Chablis, you probably won't get a very interesting result without some oak. I'm not a winemaker, so my observation is based on personal experience.

[Lior Yogev]

Gabriel, you are the only one here to bring up unoaked chards. I don't mind if the wine spent time in barrels or not, what I do mind is balance. Quite a few of the chards that are oak aged are balanced and some unoaked chards are not. A wine can spend the same amount of time in barrels as the Katzrin and be balanced (different barrels, different barrel treatment and roasting, better fruit, different winemaking, etc...) so 'technical specs' are irrelevant here.

When the oak and related flavors and aroma takes over the palate and nose of a wine I can't see how it is balanced. If I need effort and concentration to try and see beyond the barrel - well, this isn't my definition of an enjoyable wine.

Chaim, I was under the impression that most of Chablis is unoaked or at least old and used barrels that contribute little oak character. Am I wrong?

Lior

[ChaimShraga]

Chaim, I was under the impression that most of Chablis is unoaked or at least old and used barrels that contribute little oak character. Am I wrong?

Lior

You're not. What I meant is if I get the feeling that most people, if they get their hands on an unoaked Chardonnay, they'll think "hey, let's put it as a joker in a Chablis tasting", or thoughts to that effect.

[Craig Winchell]

Just coming in on the tail end of the conversation, but I agree with Chaim Shraga. As a grape variety in general, Chardonnay is a very neutral chameleon. It rarely produces satisfying results without oak or judicious blending with other varieties, and Chablis is one of the few places in the world that consistently produces satisfying results with little to no oak, largely due to the steely acidity character, coupled with a round, full mouthfeel. Usually, if one wants natural acidity, one needs to pick early, at low sugar. But at low sugar, there is typically a lack of body and other sensory characteristics. Only in Chablis does this consistently come together with acid, flavor and body. Like many here, evidently, I rarely find anything positive about unoaked Chard, and have been surprised at the use of "unoaked" as a positive marketing tool.

[Gabriel Geller]

Like many here, evidently, I rarely find anything positive about unoaked Chard, and have been surprised at the use of "unoaked" as a positive marketing tool.

Amen!

Lior, I brought up the oak/unoaked topic as I like (and same goes for most my wine-lovers friends) the tastes that oak can add to a fine Chardonnay (caramel, the baked apples, toast, bioche and such flavors) that are usually found almost exclusively in oaked Chards. So I pointed it out since a few forumites also suggested some unoaked chards which is exactly what I'm NOT looking for. But thanks for bringing up the balance. I find IMHO the Katzrin as being usually well-balanced which is I believe also among the reasons why it can relatively age well as opposed to most other Israeli whites. Now I also like the Castel even though it is usually very different from the Katzrin. The Katzrin is indeed a lot more oaky while the Castel is more fruity (the 2010 is very fruity!). I shall get bottles of the Yarden Odem '09 very soon and looking forward to give it a try and let the entire world know about it!

Best,

GG

[Gary J]

I think it is pretty simple guys.

New world producers were trying to mimic the great white Burgundys and in doing so ended up making Chardonany's with fruit that lacked the backbone (acid +) to hold up to the oak treatment they were given.

What resulted were wines reminiscent of buttered toast - not much of a wine at all if you can't find the fruit.

Consequently, people tried to make Chardonnay where the fruit was more apparent...and did so by cutting back on (or omitting entirely) their use of oak.

[Jonathan K]

Glad to see this discussion. I love Chablis, but have been very indifferent towards the California unoaked Chardonnay. Some are OK, but they are no fun.

[Gary J]

Glad to see this discussion. I love Chablis, but have been very indifferent towards the California unoaked Chardonnay. Some are OK, but they are no fun.

I'm with ya Jonathan. A good crisp Chablis...delish! SO I was excited by the idea of unoaked Chardonnay, but I find them to be a bit bitter and just not that appealing. I think the barrel aging and malolactic fermentation help with that bitterness a bit. But it is a delicate balance...

[Jonathan K]

I think it is pretty simple guys.

New world producers were trying to mimic the great white Burgundys and in doing so ended up making Chardonany's with fruit that lacked the backbone (acid +) to hold up to the oak treatment they were given.

What resulted were wines reminiscent of buttered toast - not much of a wine at all if you can't find the fruit.

Consequently, people tried to make Chardonnay where the fruit was more apparent...and did so by cutting back on (or omitting entirely) their use of oak.

While true, I think also that oak has been used with a heavy hand to cover up flaws in a wine. It's like chopping up 5 cloves of garlic into a dish where the ingredients are inferior- It doesn't really matter, the dish tastes like garlic no matter what else you put in it.
When you put out an unoaked chardonnay, you are saying there is fruit and acidity here that stands on its own. It is a welcoming thought to an oak-weary public. I just think that other than Chablis and a few other exceptions (the white burgundies of Paul Pernot, for example), the judicious use of oak adds more personality than if it wasn't there.

A good example is the Mer Soleil Chardonnays. The "Silver" Chardonnay is unoaked and quite good. But their regular one (don't think they call it gold but it has a gold label) is oaked and to me so much more appealing.

[David Raccah]

Some of the best unoaked chards that I have tasted were from Ella Valley and ONE year from Binyamina:

2009 Unoaked Chard was far better than its oaked counterpart (the 2010 version BOTH SUCK)
The Ella Valley Unoaked chard was nice, but not as good as its oaked counterpart, but still Doron took a shot because he learned from the best in Burgundy.

David

[Craig Winchell]

We all keep beating the same point, however. Heavy-handed oak is out to the person who knows wine, whether Amateur (lover of wine) or professional. If you want to reach us, winemakers, you'll judiciously use oak as a seasoning, not the main flavor component. You typically cannot reach us in many varieties using no oak at all, but when you use it, it must be deftly, to add rather than subtract from the whole experience.

And me, being one of those winemakers, has no choice but to listen and react, or lose his customers. Which is easy for me since I agree wholeheartedly.

[R Liberman]

I love the Yardem Odem and Four Gates Chardonnays, but I also really enjoy the Hagafen Chardonnay Oak Knoll.

[Gabriel Geller]

Following Yehoshua's recommendation I held tonight a special blind tasting for a group of VIP customers (was very interesting, I will post more in details in a separate dedicated thread) that included the Hevron Heights Elone Mamre Chardonnay 2010 as well as the Domaine Ventura Chardonnay 2009 (the latest was unfortunately corked so I will open another bottle tomorrow and will report back).

Hevron Heights, Elone Mamre Chardonnay 2010: Bright gold in color, a Chardonnay that has been fermented on its lies for 3 months in new French oak barrels. Bright gold and medium to full-bodied, with a nice and rich nose of citrus fruit and golden apples with some floral notes as well, followed on the palate by ripe apples and citrus fruit and honeysuckle and notes of butterscotch with a nice hint of toasted brioche on a fairly long finish. A very good wine and quite a QPR oaked Chardonnay that I think could last for another 2 years if well stored.

Many thanks Yehoshua, excellent suggestion!

Best,

GG