Challenger(s) to GHW Yarden Katzrin Chardonnay?

[Gabriel Geller]

Hello Folks,

I would like to read your thoughts and advice regarding possible challengers in quality and style to the Yarden Katzrin Chardonnay (aside from the Castel Blanc). To make it simple, I'm looking for a quality kosher oak-aged (as long as possible) Chardonnay.

For example, how in your opinion, the Ella Valley (oaked version), Binyamina Avnei Hachoshen Shoham or Domaine Ventura Chardonnay compare to the Katzrin?

Ideas?

Best,

GG

[David Raccah]

The Yarden, odem organic is to notch - I do not like the katzrin
The four gates Chardonnays are top notch
The Castel C
The Ella valley chard
The binyamina no oak
The Tzora chardonnay, though it is blended
The older lavans

[Pinchas L]

The Tzora chardonnay, though it is blended

Hi David,

I believe you got this wrong. The labels on the Neve Ilan Blanc say that it is 100% Chardonnay. You probably confused it with the Shoresh Blanc, which is predominantly Gewurztraminer, but with 15% Chardonnay blended in.

-> Pinchas

[Bill Coleman]

Just drank a 2009 Four Gates, it was delicious.
I am a big fan of the Ella Valley, and it is excellently priced. The Castel is great, too, but expensive.
Yarden Odem Organic, two thumbs up.
And I prefer oaked chardonnay, too, but the unoaked Dalton is fresh and special.

[Lior Yogev]

Pardon me for changing the subject, but I challenge the concept that it IS of such quality.

Lior

[Gabriel Geller]

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

While I'm looking forward to an occasion of tasting the Four Gates, I'll probably have to wait for my next trip to the US...

The Ella Valley is quite nice, like practically everything those folks make, but it is a little bit too new world in style for me. Btw, the Katzrin is in my eyes a good crossover between new and old world, fruit-forward but very oaky as well, with those notes of caramel that I like so much.

Binyamina: no oak. Enough said...

Dave: the Neve Ilan is a great one, I should have thought of it myself!

Bill: I gotta try as well the Odem '09, Dave's recent TN of the '08 scared me a little so I'll wait a few more months to open a bottle if it really is in dumb mode.

Pinchas: You're 100% correct!

Lior: I like both the Castel and Katzrin a lot, and the Herzog Reserve Russian River ('07) is not bad either. I acknowledge that I'm going here against the popular trend of unoaked Chardonnay. I know, I'm often very conservative... For instance (sorry, I admit that this is a bit off the thread), we were having again that discussion with Raccah the other day about Cab Franc being a good candidate for Israel's variety but I ain't a member of that club, I'm a big believer of Petite Sirah with Carignan as close 2nd. Will be also interesting to see if other Israeli wineries will follow Barkan, GHW and Netofa to name only these and produce wines made, either blend or varietal, from Tinta Cao, Touriga Nacional, Caladoc or Marselan (the last two being part of Barkan Assemblage Tzap/fit).

Best,

GG

[Gary J]

Hello Folks,

I would like to read your thoughts and advice regarding possible challengers in quality and style to the Yarden Katzrin Chardonnay (aside from the Castel Blanc). To make it simple, I'm looking for a quality kosher oak-aged (as long as possible) Chardonnay.

For example, how in your opinion, the Ella Valley (oaked version), Binyamina Avnei Hachoshen Shoham or Domaine Ventura Chardonnay compare to the Katzrin?

Ideas?

Best,

GG

I find the Segal's Reserve Chardonnay to be made in that style and amazingly at a fraction of the price of some other Chards...

[Gabriel Geller]

Very interesting Gary, I've never tasted it and will do so asap! Thanks!

[Gary J]

Very interesting Gary, I've never tasted it and will do so asap! Thanks!

Pleasure & enjoy!

[Lior Yogev]

Lior: I like both the Castel and Katzrin a lot, and the Herzog Reserve Russian River ('07) is not bad either. I acknowledge that I'm going here against the popular trend of unoaked Chardonnay. I know, I'm often very conservative...

a. I'm not talking about unoaked chards, but there is a range somewhere between no oak and overoaking.
b. I can't see the relation between being a conservative and overoaking the chard (unless it refers to a couple of decades ago in Napa)

For instance (sorry, I admit that this is a bit off the thread), we were having again that discussion with Raccah the other day about Cab Franc being a good candidate for Israel's variety but I ain't a member of that club, I'm a big believer of Petite Sirah with Carignan as close 2nd. Will be also interesting to see if other Israeli wineries will follow Barkan, GHW and Netofa to name only these and produce wines made, either blend or varietal, from Tinta Cao, Touriga Nacional, Caladoc or Marselan (the last two being part of Barkan Assemblage Tzap/fit).

Sorry, couldn't understand if there's a relation between this and my comment or the other part of the quoted text.

Best,
Lior

[Gabriel Geller]

For instance (sorry, I admit that this is a bit off the thread), we were having again that discussion with Raccah the other day about Cab Franc being a good candidate for Israel's variety but I ain't a member of that club, I'm a big believer of Petite Sirah with Carignan as close 2nd. Will be also interesting to see if other Israeli wineries will follow Barkan, GHW and Netofa to name only these and produce wines made, either blend or varietal, from Tinta Cao, Touriga Nacional, Caladoc or Marselan (the last two being part of Barkan Assemblage Tzap/fit).

Sorry, couldn't understand if there's a relation between this and my comment or the other part of the quoted text.

Best,
Lior

What I meant Lior, was that unoaked Chardonnay seems to be the currant hot trend, on this forum in particular but I personally like the oaked Chard better and especially the Katzrin and the Castel. So I was referring to the fact that there seems to be also a hot trend re: Cabernet Franc being the best candidate for israel's varietal while I think PS and Carignan are better suited for that "crown"!

ודרך אגב ליאור, מה דעתך בענין? (Btw Lior, what's your opinion on that matter?)

[Yehoshua Werth]

Elone Mamre by Hevron Heights..

Great fruity acid on initial attack then morphs into a wonderfull buttered oak.. YUMM

[Gabriel Geller]

Elone Mamre by Hevron Heights..

Great fruity acid on initial attack then morphs into a wonderfull buttered oak.. YUMM

Isn't the Elone mamre a red wine? Unless they made also a white under that appellation. I will investigate. (Can you believe HHW don't have a website?!)

[Gabriel Geller]

Elone Mamre by Hevron Heights..

Great fruity acid on initial attack then morphs into a wonderfull buttered oak.. YUMM

Isn't the Elone mamre a red wine? Unless they made also a white under that appellation. I will investigate. (Can you believe HHW don't have a website?!)

You're 100% correct Yehoshua! There's an EM Chard! Never saw it nor heard of it before.

[Yehoshua Werth]

Find it... A real stormer

As the Tishbi Special reserve is smooth and butter
as the Odem Volcanic is a Fruit bomb
as the Herzog Russian is an Oak bomb
as the Yarden Odem is more crisp
not had the Katzrin
and the Recanati is to me one of the best for the Dollar SOlid

[Yossie Horwitz]

I actually don't think the Katzrin Chard is that great and greatly prefer the Odem Organic Chard from Yarden which I find to have better balance, more complexity and less oak than the Katzrin (which does change dramatically after a few years of cellaring). As far as suggestions, I second Raccah's Four Gates recommendations (which also benefits from some cellaring) and the Covenant 2008 and 2009 Lavan wines. I'd highly recommend the Ella Valley as well. Any price range specifics or anything goes (both the Recanati and Binyamina wines are good value options).

[Gabriel Geller]

I actually don't think the Katzrin Chard is that great and greatly prefer the Odem Organic Chard from Yarden which I find to have better balance, more complexity and less oak than the Katzrin (which does change dramatically after a few years of cellaring). As far as suggestions, I second Raccah's Four Gates recommendations (which also benefits from some cellaring) and the Covenant 2008 and 2009 Lavan wines. I'd highly recommend the Ella Valley as well. Any price range specifics or anything goes (both the Recanati and Binyamina wines are good value options).

I shall give a try at the EV soon! Yossie, may I ask your opinion on the Neve Ilan Blanc?

[ChaimShraga]

A few years ago, someone brought a fourteen year old Katzrin Chardonnay to a Burgundy tasting to prove it could age. But really, all it proved was that it survived. Somehow.

I dug up my note.

This blantantly octogenarian ringer was a surprise. Not that this is a great wine or any proof that Israeli whites can survive this long but... The nose is obviously oxidized but there are animalistic and mineral notes that are quite intriguing. The palate is sweetish, lacks acidity, thus not very lively and fades quickly. But this is overall an interesting wine to taste if you just happen to have a fourteen year old version lying around. Just don't try aging it for this long at home, folks.

I've tasted other vintages at various points along their lives and by the time the oak, so does a lot of the fruit and the secondary flavors and aromas aren't as interesting as those of mature white Burgundies or Chablis. Given that Rogov tended to over-score Israeli wines, the scores for the Katzrin were the most ridiculous examples. If you like oaky Chardonnays, fine, then maybe you'd understand Rogov's scores for them had you drunk them wine. But as far as I recall, his recommended drinking windows would have you drink them when stylistically they'd be competing with white B's and then there's no contest. Or maybe I never understood the context of the score for those wines.

Anyway, I'm not sure unoaked Chardonnay is as big a buzz in Israel as, say, Rhone varieties and I don't think the structure of the fruit in Israel is right for it. The few samples I've tried were more topical in character and not as racy as I'd expected.

[Gabriel Geller]

A few years ago, someone brought a fourteen year old Katzrin Chardonnay to a Burgundy tasting to prove it could age. But really, all it proved was that it survived. Somehow.

I dug up my note.

This blantantly octogenarian ringer was a surprise. Not that this is a great wine or any proof that Israeli whites can survive this long but... The nose is obviously oxidized but there are animalistic and mineral notes that are quite intriguing. The palate is sweetish, lacks acidity, thus not very lively and fades quickly. But this is overall an interesting wine to taste if you just happen to have a fourteen year old version lying around. Just don't try aging it for this long at home, folks.

I've tasted other vintages at various points along their lives and by the time the oak, so does a lot of the fruit and the secondary flavors and aromas aren't as interesting as those of mature white Burgundies or Chablis. Given that Rogov tended to over-score Israeli wines, the scores for the Katzrin were the most ridiculous examples. If you like oaky Chardonnays, fine, then maybe you'd understand Rogov's scores for them had you drunk them wine. But as far as I recall, his recommended drinking windows would have you drink them when stylistically they'd be competing with white B's and then there's no contest. Or maybe I never understood the context of the score for those wines.

Anyway, I'm not sure unoaked Chardonnay is as big a buzz in Israel as, say, Rhone varieties and I don't think the structure of the fruit in Israel is right for it. The few samples I've tried were more topical in character and not as racy as I'd expected.

I'm totally with you re: unoaked Chard. While indeed Israeli whites in general rarely age for more than 8 years for the better stuff, my recent experiences with 11-14 y.o. sparkling Yardens are proofs to me that there are some exceptions.

A fellow forumite recently asked me if I could assist him in finding bottles of the Katzrin Chardonnay 2002. I replied that it is very unlikely available anywhere and that I wouldn't recommend it anyway.

Now re: Rogov's scoring system: Is that only my impression or people here are starting now to express their long-hidden feelings about Rogov's arguable methods now that he is gone for more than 6 months?

I gotta feeling that many people here didn't dare to ask him on the forum some embarassing questions...

I myself admit that I used to attach too much importance to his scores and I think that I enjoy now my wines even more while relying on my palate and curiosity as well as on some of the forumites' opinion when I found some having often similar taste/palate to mine.

Perhaps worth dedicating a specific thread to the topic?

Best,

GG

[ChaimShraga]

I gotta feeling that many people here didn't dare to ask him on the forum some embarassing questions...

Well, the question was raised many, many times on the old Forum, but despite Rogov's stated stance that he welcomed questions, it was never an outright debate because Rogov's position, and pardon me for over-simplifying, was that he stood by his own palate and scores and that was all she wrote. My feelings were that if you score, say, Flam CS a 94, same as as major league Bordeaux of a great year, then you have to explain what the Flam gives you to make up for the lesser finesse and the lesser cellaring potential and all that cellaring can give a wine. I referred to this specific example about seven, eight years ago and besides offering the Forum to set up a tasting and see (which eventually I'd done anyway and came to the conclusion that the scores were inflated, big surprise), I never got a very enlightening response (although at the time I enjoyed his kudos for the fact that I posed such a specific question as opposed to simply ranting). It didn't help either that so many posters, some of which were of - dare I say it - dubious relation to reality - simply quoted Rogov's notes whenever they tasted any of the wines he wrote about, which created a very closed, incestuous ecological system.

I did get the feeling that over time he started adjusting his scores but it didn't really help as the old notes were still floating around the internet and being quoted in stores.

Just one more reason I object to scores.

[Gabriel Geller]

ChaimShraga, I hear you and you aren't the only forumite to express this opinion. But Rogov wasn't the only one to give scores as high to Israeli wines or any other wine whether kosher, israeli or not for the matter as many critics around the world including Parker, WE, WS and many others who also give scores of 90+ to wines regardless of their price or aging potential.

So I think Rogov was not necessarily giving inflated scores to Israeli wines but was rather giving relatively high scores in general more often than his peers to all wines. I believe his scoring system was mainly based on his overall "enjoyment" of the wine (nose, palate, finish). The reason so many Israeli wines received so many high scores is that he was simply publishing (in his Haaretz articles) almost exclusively scores for these wines as that was his job after all, reviewing israeli restaurants, Israeli and kosher wines from the rest of the world.

[ChaimShraga]

Gabriel,

It's not true that Rogov gave inflated scores in general, simply not true. With Bordeaux, he stayed close to the norm and there were some region he definitely did not really 'get'. There were a lot of Riojas he underscored and gave too short drinking windows. There alos some misses with Burgundy.

I have a very retentive memory for scores. I may not believe in them, but I remember them.

[Lior Yogev]

The Hebrew isn't necessary. My opinion is that the Katzrin white is one of the most over oaked wines I ever tasted, and to my taste it is lacking balance so badly it is personally undrinkable.
You continue to avoid my previous point that chards don't have to be either over-oaked or un-oaked. Many Israeli chards have various amounts of barrel exposure, including high levels of such - yet they are more balanced. I like the Ella Valley chard, CdG, Neve Ilan which is excellent and elegant IMO.

Regarding Rogov scores - there is a wide consensus that he overscored Israeli wines. It is true the Squires and WS gave a handful of wines 90+ scores, but in their reviews the vast majority of the wines (the 90+ included) scored significantly less than Rogov's scores. After Squires' first review of Israeli wines: (a) he wrote criticism that they are overly esteemed locally and (b) Rogov himself admitted that he may need to revise his scores.

Lior

[Lior Yogev]

P.S.

I like this post from Chaim's blog: http://2grandcru.blogspot.com/2007/03/h ... onnay.html

Lior