2007 Shiloh Cab-Merlot -- Mevushal? --Does anyone know??

[Andrew Breskin]

Does anyone know? Thanks.

[Adam M]

I think they make both versions. I've seen it in restaurants in NYC. It is such a shame that wineries need to go out of their way to make a MeV version just for the US restaurant market.....

[Andrew Breskin]

Thanks

[Gary J]

I think they make both versions. I've seen it in restaurants in NYC. It is such a shame that wineries need to go out of their way to make a MeV version just for the US restaurant market.....

Why is it a shame Adam?

I have so much to say on this topic. But as it relates to Shiloh, I will tell you that Amichai (Shiloh winemaker) developed his own proprietary method for flash pasteurization and wine critics throughout the country who tasted the ENTRY-LEVEL (Shor series) mevushal wines from Shiloh that ARE mevushal were blown away by the quality.

I'll start a separate topic about flash pasteaurization, but contrary to what our good friend Daniel Rogov used to say, mevushal does not (have to) mean inferior quality.

Just sayin'....

[Gabriel Geller]

contrary to what our good friend Daniel Rogov used to say, mevushal does not (have to) mean inferior quality.

I recall Rogov did recognize that Hagafen and many of Herzog mevushal Reserve wines were not inferior in quality at all (and frankly, would have seemed dumb from him to state otherwise as those are really excellent wines IMHO).

[Gary J]

contrary to what our good friend Daniel Rogov used to say, mevushal does not (have to) mean inferior quality.

I recall Rogov did recognize that Hagafen and many of Herzog mevushal Reserve wines were not inferior in quality at all (and frankly, would have seemed dumb from him to state otherwise as those are really excellent wines IMHO).

I may be misremembering, but as I recallit he made a concession that they weren't massively harmed as a result of the pasteurization, but I do not think he ever said that they were not at all inferior (though I do not recall the actual, & well thought out I'm sure, language that Rogov used).

[Andrew Breskin]

Agreed that Shiloh has figured out the mevu process, but as this is relatively recent, we'll see how it affects the wine later on down the road (for those bottlings that are able to age a while, as the entry level wines are not)

[Gabriel Geller]

I may be misremembering, but as I recallit he made a concession that they weren't massively harmed as a result of the pasteurization, but I do not think he ever said that they were not at all inferior (though I do not recall the actual, & well thought out I'm sure, language that Rogov used).

Since you practically asked for it:

With the tastings of my 2011 kosher wine guide now thankfully completed and the manuscript set for final editing, a few moments to report on several issues related to wines that are mevushal (flash pasteurized)

1. With regard to kosher wines in general, this year more than any year in the past, I have noticed a huge leap in the number of mevushal wines from the producer/negotiants in France, Italy, Spain, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Chile and Argentina . A bit of data gathering reveals in fact that of the more than 700 new kosher releases I tasted this year, 77% of the were mevushal.

2. Not based on data but on simple observation, I could not help but notice that an increasing number of wines from Herzog, including quite a few in their highest level series are also mevushal. As always, all of the wines of Hagafen remain mevushal.

3. This direction towards producing mevushal wines is precisely the opposite in Israel where the Golan Heights Winery produces no mevushal wines and where Carmel no longer produces mevushal wines in any of their mid- or high-end series. In general it is safe to say that fewer and fewer wines in high-end Israeli series are being made this way.

4. More important, I have now completed what was a four year project on my part in tasting and comparing mevushal editions to non-mevushal editions of the same wine or of wines in the same series, some of which were mevushal and others not. The results, albeit not "laboratory controlled" and relying entirely on my own palate, are clear and easily divided according to continent.

(a) With the vast majority of European and South American produced kosher wines, those that are mevushal reflect that negatively on release, most often in lessened aromas and flavors and quite often with not desired notes of stewed rather than fresh fruits. By six months after release, the aromatic and flavor profiles of nearly every wine sampled show marked differences between mevushal and non-mevushal wines, the advantage always in favor of the non-mevushal. By twelve-thirteen months after release, many of the simpler wines show profiles that are stewed, bitter and often far too generously acetic in nature and are well past their peak despite their still apparent youth.

(b) With regard to the mevushal wines of the United States, in particular of California, the good news is that the better wines of Herzog and Hagafen show very little if any difference in aroma and flavor profiles on release and then, although there is a shift in those profiles over the next three-four years, that is not a negative shift, simply reflecting differences in profiles and not damage. I have some 120 trios of wines waiting to be re-tasted again after 7, 9 and 11 years to see how those fine wines fare over the longer term. (I add, but almost entirely in humor, that should I die before that experiment comes to its finality, someone will inherit a goodly selection of mevushal kosher wines)

(c) With regard to the lower series of wines from the United States, those that are mevushal tend to follow the same pattern as do European, South American, Australian and New Zealand wines (i.e. fairly rapid shift in profiles and with that parallel lessening of quality and appeal).

(d) One interesting finding, and worth knowing for the consumer, is that those wines made that were flash pasteurized in the must stage (that is to say, before fermentation) tend to age and develop far better than those what were flash pasteurized as wine per se. In many cases flash pasteurization of the must actually improves the quality of the wine. (This is a process used by many of the very best producers of the Rhone Valley and certainly does no harm whatever to their wines). Alas, only a minority of kosher wines are flash pasteurized in the must stage. Some may, however, find it rewarding to contact various wineries to determine which wines are produced by which method.

It is clear that producing wines that are flash pasteurized is largely an economic consideration on the part of most wineries, for only those wines can be introduced to kosher restaurants and kosher catering establishments. It is also clear that many importers are selling mevushal wines that logic (and tastings) indicate are far beyond their peak because of the mevushal process. In a word – caveat emptor – let the buyer be aware and, when necessary beware.

Best
Rogov

[Gary J]

Agreed that Shiloh has figured out the mevu process, but as this is relatively recent, we'll see how it affects the wine later on down the road (for those bottlings that are able to age a while, as the entry level wines are not)

Agreed Andrew...it will be very interesting to taste mevushal & non-mevushal bottlings of the same wine from Shiloh in 5, 10 & more years, down the road...

[Adam M]

I think they make both versions. I've seen it in restaurants in NYC. It is such a shame that wineries need to go out of their way to make a MeV version just for the US restaurant market.....

Why is it a shame Adam?

I have so much to say on this topic. But as it relates to Shiloh, I will tell you that Amichai (Shiloh winemaker) developed his own proprietary method for flash pasteurization and wine critics throughout the country who tasted the ENTRY-LEVEL (Shor series) mevushal wines from Shiloh that ARE mevushal were blown away by the quality.

I'll start a separate topic about flash pasteaurization, but contrary to what our good friend Daniel Rogov used to say, mevushal does not (have to) mean inferior quality.

Just sayin'....

Hey Gary - It's a shame b/c it limits the selection of wine that I can drink when I eat out! With all due respect to the mevushal "establishment," why do I want to go and pay big bucks for a very limited selection of good kosher wine every time I go out for a steak??? And why must I be limited to a Royal-distributed mevushal wine?

As they say, "only in America"!!

Love ya!

(We're still friends, right?)

[Gary J]

I think they make both versions. I've seen it in restaurants in NYC. It is such a shame that wineries need to go out of their way to make a MeV version just for the US restaurant market.....

Why is it a shame Adam?

I have so much to say on this topic. But as it relates to Shiloh, I will tell you that Amichai (Shiloh winemaker) developed his own proprietary method for flash pasteurization and wine critics throughout the country who tasted the ENTRY-LEVEL (Shor series) mevushal wines from Shiloh that ARE mevushal were blown away by the quality.

I'll start a separate topic about flash pasteaurization, but contrary to what our good friend Daniel Rogov used to say, mevushal does not (have to) mean inferior quality.

Just sayin'....

Hey Gary - It's a shame b/c it limits the selection of wine that I can drink when I eat out! With all due respect to the mevushal "establishment," why do I want to go and pay big bucks for a very limited selection of good kosher wine every time I go out for a steak??? And why must I be limited to a Royal-distributed mevushal wine?

As they say, "only in America"!!

Love ya!

(We're still friends, right?)

First off, still love ya buddy!

But...DOH...I misunderstood. I thought you meant it was a shame that they put the wine through flash pasteurization. Now that I understand, I completely AGREE with you!

As to eating out a steak and enjoying a non-mevushal wine...it is coming to NYC! I believe the name of the place is Jezebel. They should be opening soon. Forumites...should I look into a group dinner there opening week???

[Adam M]

Yes please!!!