Hello from UK

[Rafael Joseph]

Hello,

I thought I'd introduce myself and say hello to the people I've been stalking for the past two months while I tried to work out where the "register" button was for these forums!

Wine is a recent thing for me having done a Shabbat hosting job for a Shul for the last year, I started buying wine for the table as well as receiving plenty of bottles as gifts. I'm still learning the basics of what good wine is all about.

In England, prices are a bit steep for Kosher wine compared to the states but I've done a good job upsetting my wife in order to just get my mouth around as much wine as possible. I've been to two wine tastings, one by Kedem Europe and one by Golan Heights Winery (the Kedem one just edged it).

I've also been meticulously reading David Raccah's fantastic blog about Kosher wines which has provided me with a great insight into the wine world.

Anyway, here are some of the wines I've bought since I began my new found hobby (as well as prices so you Israelis and Americans get an idea as to how limited this hobby may be for me!). I have to confess, I really am struggling to get the notes that people write on wine with regards to scent, I'm assuming this is something that occurs over time or am I the equivalent of a tone deaf person wanting to sing?

Dalton Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon 2009 (£26.00)
Segal Unfiltered Cabernet Sauvignon 2007 (£45.00)
Gamla Cabernet Sauvignon 2009 (£16.50) Saw it at £11.99 so bought a case, figured its good enough for Shabbat and £11 is good economics when you host every other week.
Segal Cabernet Sauvignon Single Vineyard 2007 (£25.00) Bought for Purim
Galil Mountain Cabernet Sauvignon 2010 (£13.00) Surprisingly good for a non-oaked wine at that price but what do I know?
Capcanes Flor de Flor 2007 (£42.00) someone actually bought this as a gift for us, was so nice I thought I'd buy another till I saw the price. Bought it for Purim though - Purim was good this year!
Flechas de los Andes 2009 Gran Malbec (£23.00) Tried this at a tasting, bought a case @ £20/bottle. I've yet to see an unfinished glass at my table. Smashing value for money in my humble opinion.

Wines I'm eager to try:

1) Covenant Cabernet Sauvignon - £75, need a special occasion really.
2) Dalton Matatia - £85, I'm a big Dalton fan, their wines are generally very good.
3) Yarden Rom 2006, £116, I don't think I need to explain this one, it was these forums that put the idea into my head.
4) Bravdo Cabernet Sauvignon £23, tried this at a tasting, was really impressed and would like to get a bottle in near future.

I've not included the tastings or the wines that just didn't make an impression on me (like the on-sale Barkan Reserve Cab I had the other day)

A few questions for people:

Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine?
What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?
Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good?
Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books?

Have a Chag Sameach

Rafael

[Isaac Chavel]

Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine?
I would not venture to name one. But there are members, beyond David Raccah, of the forum who write blogs. For example, YossieH, Jonathan K. I am sure others will chime in to add those I missed. With time you build up, without realizing, a sense of whose palate and judgement is closest to yours. In the end, as a winemaker once said to me, "What is the best wine? The one you like the most."

What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?
The best way to build up a sense here is to read the harryj's weekend threads. People often comment there on QPR (quality-price-ratio) of particular wines and/or wineries in general.

Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good?
Cannot help you there, and I do not have sufficiently deep pockets to find out.

Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books?
No, there has been loads of commentary in the past concernng his grading system. In fact, at one point, about a year or two before he passed away, he tweaked his grading system. As a former professor, I would say he indulged in a bit of "grade inflation." But after awhile, one gets used to it and concentrates on the other qualities of his reviews.

Hope this helps. Chag same'ach,

Isaac

[Or Shoham]

I thought I'd introduce myself and say hello to the people I've been stalking for the past two months while I tried to work out where the "register" button was for these forums!

Hey there...

What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?

That, of course, depends greatly on your definition of "reasonably priced" - and your own personal tastes, of course. There's no one "best wine", after all.

Based on UK availability, I would recommend trying some of the following Israeli kosher wines which I think should be available under 20 GBP, and perhaps as low as ~12GBP:
Dalton Petite Sirah (and possibly other wines in the Dalton "D" series, plus any of the Alma wines)
Galil Mountain Pinot Noir / Galil Mountain Alon blend (the latter may not be available in the UK yet, as it is a fairly recent release)
Gamla series wines
Barkan reserve series wines

At a higher price point but still likely south of 30 GBP; generally wines for aging rather than immediate consumption:
Galil Mountain Yiron/Meron
Barkan Altitude +624
Golan Heights Yarden wines (particularly the Cabernet Sauvignon)


I pulled these from UK-based websites (and the prices listed there), which is why the list is fairly short. There's quite a few other wines worth trying

[Mike BG]

If you are in London, Kosher Kingdom (and Sussers, I believe) are selling Capcanes Peraj Petita for about GBP 18, which is fantastic value! It is really not much different from the Peraj Haabib, which costs more than twice as much.

Chag Sameach!
Michael

[Adam M]

Hi Raphael - Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you've been ascending into the upper echelons of the kosher wine scene quite rapidly! I know the feeling; it's hard sometimes to make heads and tails of what people are saying, particularly when your palate is saying something else!

Here are some observations in response to your post:

1. You should not struggle to "get" peoples' notes. It's just not worth it. My view is that there are only a few words in an entire paragraph of notes that are useful and that carryover from palate to palate. I think people invite confusion when they include multiple synonyms for the a single flavor or note. So don't get hung up on anyone's notes. I would, instead, be guided by which wines OBJECTIVE forumites (of this forum) speak favorably about the most.

2. I agree 100% with Isaac that Harry's weekend wine thread is probably the single most objective reference point in the world for gaining insights as to what represents quality kosher wine. The only catch to this is that there are at least a hand-full of forumites who are associated in some fashion with the wine industry, whether a winery or a wine distributor. These people will anonymously write about only their wines in an attempt to influence forumites and other viewers. As a newcomer, you won't know who these people are (at least not immediately). So before making a wine purchase based on what someone on the forum says, I'd check to make sure that the person has a history of making objective comments regarding wines from other wineries or distributors, and/or other unafiliated forumites make concurring remarks about a particular wine.

3. Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine? A very easy question: No one! And be careful with wine blogs. I'm sure that the intentions are mostly all in the right place, and the writing in many of them is superior. But there are no checks and balances. In most if not all cases, the posting of all comments from outsiders that are posted on the blog can be controlled by the owner of the blog. Unlike this forum, in which a person's assertions can be challenged and vetted in a public setting. So I would follow the blogs with pleasure, but cross check here before making a major wine investment.

4. What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced? I find that this is an especially subjective question. It is quite easy for 10 people to stand around and all agree that an expensive, well made wine is very good. But once the price tag drops off of the cliff, I think it becomes much more difficult to agree, which is exaserbated by the vast amount of great values out there. I am loathed to single out any one or two wines with any kind of ink that can't be erased. But if I had a gun to my head and had to spit out a couple of names, I probably would mention the Galil Mountain Yiron and Recanati Reserve Cabernet, as these wines have a consistent history of delivering excellent quality at under USD$20. But as I say this, I'm reminded of the newly released 2010 Tulip Just Merlot that is also a very special and noteworthy entry-level wine that I would recommend trying. You can often find the regular Yarden series of wines under $20 as well, such as the 2007 Syrah, which are also amazing values. It's just not fair to give the prize to one or two, or even a handful. I'd just keep tracking Harry's weekend post for insights.

5. Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good? This is another hair-splitting exercise. I'm sure the felling is mixed on this one. I trusted Rogov on the basic premise that the wine was outstanding. I purchased some bottles on this basis. but I haven't tried any of them yet, as the wine is not meant for very early drinking. I have, on the other hand, tried the 2007 Rom, and I can tell you that it was damn good. But whether it is a worthwhile investment is totally dependent on budget and other subjective factors.

6. Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books? Nope. It is far from perfect.

[Gabriel Geller]

Hi Rafael, welcome to the club!

I notice that while the prices of the non-israeli wines in UK are somewhat standard (similar the more or less to the US prices), it's 70-100% pricier than in Israel for the israeli stuff!

Now Rafael I will "reveal" what is no longer a secret for all the folks here: Once your foot is in the door of the Wonderful World of Wine there is no way back! You are now there forever so get ready to make a bomb on some cracker booze and unless you're minted enough, find yourself broke in no-time and say goodbye to your lolly in exchange of some lash!

Chag Sameach!

GG

[Rafael Joseph]

Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine?
I would not venture to name one. But there are members, beyond David Raccah, of the forum who write blogs. For example, YossieH, Jonathan K. I am sure others will chime in to add those I missed. With time you build up, without realizing, a sense of whose palate and judgement is closest to yours. In the end, as a winemaker once said to me, "What is the best wine? The one you like the most."

What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?
The best way to build up a sense here is to read the harryj's weekend threads. People often comment there on QPR (quality-price-ratio) of particular wines and/or wineries in general.

Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good?
Cannot help you there, and I do not have sufficiently deep pockets to find out.

Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books?
No, there has been loads of commentary in the past concernng his grading system. In fact, at one point, about a year or two before he passed away, he tweaked his grading system. As a former professor, I would say he indulged in a bit of "grade inflation." But after awhile, one gets used to it and concentrates on the other qualities of his reviews.

Hope this helps. Chag same'ach,

Isaac

Many thanks for your response, I just found it hard to accept that certain wines that cost around £15 were scored 89 points and then wines that were around the £40 mark were scored 91. I know that Israeli wine has come along way in the last decade etc. but unless critics are prepared to "slam" a wine if it is not up to scratch (even for its price) then I find it hard to respect the scoring.

The local wine shop just put up the price of the Rom fron £116 to £130, I think I'll need to have another kid to justify buying one of those.

[Rafael Joseph]

I thought I'd introduce myself and say hello to the people I've been stalking for the past two months while I tried to work out where the "register" button was for these forums!

Hey there...

What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?

That, of course, depends greatly on your definition of "reasonably priced" - and your own personal tastes, of course. There's no one "best wine", after all.

Based on UK availability, I would recommend trying some of the following Israeli kosher wines which I think should be available under 20 GBP, and perhaps as low as ~12GBP:
Dalton Petite Sirah (and possibly other wines in the Dalton "D" series, plus any of the Alma wines)
Galil Mountain Pinot Noir / Galil Mountain Alon blend (the latter may not be available in the UK yet, as it is a fairly recent release)
Gamla series wines
Barkan reserve series wines

At a higher price point but still likely south of 30 GBP; generally wines for aging rather than immediate consumption:
Galil Mountain Yiron/Meron
Barkan Altitude +624
Golan Heights Yarden wines (particularly the Cabernet Sauvignon)


I pulled these from UK-based websites (and the prices listed there), which is why the list is fairly short. There's quite a few other wines worth trying

Thanks for the info. I tried the Dalton Alma over Pesach - very nice wine that I thoroughly recommend for its price tag (it is on special here at the moment @ £16.99). The Petit Castel 2009 is also on special at the moment and I picked one up for £25.99, can't wait to give that a proper trial!

[Rafael Joseph]

If you are in London, Kosher Kingdom (and Sussers, I believe) are selling Capcanes Peraj Petita for about GBP 18, which is fantastic value! It is really not much different from the Peraj Haabib, which costs more than twice as much.

Chag Sameach!
Michael

Thanks Michael,

I've had that wine twice now (for £15) not bad at all but still has the markings of a £15 wine. I sampled the Haabib the other day - woud like to try it ut properly one day.

[Rafael Joseph]

Hi Raphael - Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you've been ascending into the upper echelons of the kosher wine scene quite rapidly! I know the feeling; it's hard sometimes to make heads and tails of what people are saying, particularly when your palate is saying something else!

Here are some observations in response to your post:

1. You should not struggle to "get" peoples' notes. It's just not worth it. My view is that there are only a few words in an entire paragraph of notes that are useful and that carryover from palate to palate. I think people invite confusion when they include multiple synonyms for the a single flavor or note. So don't get hung up on anyone's notes. I would, instead, be guided by which wines OBJECTIVE forumites (of this forum) speak favorably about the most.

2. I agree 100% with Isaac that Harry's weekend wine thread is probably the single most objective reference point in the world for gaining insights as to what represents quality kosher wine. The only catch to this is that there are at least a hand-full of forumites who are associated in some fashion with the wine industry, whether a winery or a wine distributor. These people will anonymously write about only their wines in an attempt to influence forumites and other viewers. As a newcomer, you won't know who these people are (at least not immediately). So before making a wine purchase based on what someone on the forum says, I'd check to make sure that the person has a history of making objective comments regarding wines from other wineries or distributors, and/or other unafiliated forumites make concurring remarks about a particular wine.

3. Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine? A very easy question: No one! And be careful with wine blogs. I'm sure that the intentions are mostly all in the right place, and the writing in many of them is superior. But there are no checks and balances. In most if not all cases, the posting of all comments from outsiders that are posted on the blog can be controlled by the owner of the blog. Unlike this forum, in which a person's assertions can be challenged and vetted in a public setting. So I would follow the blogs with pleasure, but cross check here before making a major wine investment.

4. What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced? I find that this is an especially subjective question. It is quite easy for 10 people to stand around and all agree that an expensive, well made wine is very good. But once the price tag drops off of the cliff, I think it becomes much more difficult to agree, which is exaserbated by the vast amount of great values out there. I am loathed to single out any one or two wines with any kind of ink that can't be erased. But if I had a gun to my head and had to spit out a couple of names, I probably would mention the Galil Mountain Yiron and Recanati Reserve Cabernet, as these wines have a consistent history of delivering excellent quality at under USD$20. But as I say this, I'm reminded of the newly released 2010 Tulip Just Merlot that is also a very special and noteworthy entry-level wine that I would recommend trying. You can often find the regular Yarden series of wines under $20 as well, such as the 2007 Syrah, which are also amazing values. It's just not fair to give the prize to one or two, or even a handful. I'd just keep tracking Harry's weekend post for insights.

5. Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good? This is another hair-splitting exercise. I'm sure the felling is mixed on this one. I trusted Rogov on the basic premise that the wine was outstanding. I purchased some bottles on this basis. but I haven't tried any of them yet, as the wine is not meant for very early drinking. I have, on the other hand, tried the 2007 Rom, and I can tell you that it was damn good. But whether it is a worthwhile investment is totally dependent on budget and other subjective factors.

6. Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books? Nope. It is far from perfect.

Mant thanks for the detailed response - very handy tips! I'll keep an eye out for those wines you have mentioned.

[Yehoshua Werth]

Welcome and me we all find those special bottles at great prices that we sooo hunt for in this Kosher world..

Love be with your day and a Happy Pesach,

[Yossie Horwitz]

Working my way through recent postings and just wanted to respond to a few questions posted here:

In England, prices are a bit steep for Kosher wine compared to the states but I've done a good job upsetting my wife in order to just get my mouth around as much wine as possible.

Given the relative proximity to Israel, I'd suggest at least looking into ordering directly from the Israeli wineries or wine shops. While shipping gets expensive, its a good way to get many wines not available in your market and sometimes for much better prices (shipping included). Happy to recommend some great shops if you like (for the record, I have no commercial affiliation with any wine related entities - shops, wineries, importers or otherwise).

I have to confess, I really am struggling to get the notes that people write on wine with regards to scent, I'm assuming this is something that occurs over time or am I the equivalent of a tone deaf person wanting to sing?

Discerning the various notes in a wine is definitely something that comes with plenty of practice so keep plugging. That said, don't worry about understanding other people's tasting notes. The more comparative tasting you do (i.e. tasting multiple wines at once), the better and easier it will be. While I agree with Adam that your own opinion is obviously the most important, it sometimes helps to use a published/detailed note and see if you can pick up 1-2 of the more dominant scents (instead of trying to get them all). I wrote a brief piece on "How to taste wine" on my website which you might find helpful. Find a wine writer/critic whose tastes are close to yours for some guidance/help but develop your own palate.

Segal Unfiltered Cabernet Sauvignon 2007 (£45.00)

Wait a few more years before you open this if it is your only bottle.

1) Covenant Cabernet Sauvignon - £75, need a special occasion really.
2) Dalton Matatia - £85, I'm a big Dalton fan, their wines are generally very good.
3) Yarden Rom 2006, £116, I don't think I need to explain this one, it was these forums that put the idea into my head.
4) Bravdo Cabernet Sauvignon £23, tried this at a tasting, was really impressed and would like to get a bottle in near future.

For the high-end stuff, make sure you buy from a reputable source. I'd add the other Bravdo wines to your list - the Shiraz & Coupage are both better than the Cabernet (which is great as well).

Who, after Rogov, is the next foremost authority on Kosher Wine?

Nobody. There isn't and will not be a replacement for Rogov in the sense that he covered the entire world of kosher wine and purported to taste nearly every kosher wine. Instead there are a number of, and will be more, knowledgeable folks who write more-or-less regularly about kosher wine in English (with a larger number writing in Hebrew and worth following if you are able). While some of these are "affiliated" with the industry and can be biased, many aren't.

What is the best wine that is also reasonably priced?

Best is a subjective term and at the lower price ranges you get widely differing opinions on what people like. I am also not that up-to-date on UK availability/pricing but a few suggestions of the top of my head out of the numerous wines that may fill your criteria around the $10-15 level are the Capcanes Peraj Petita, Barkan Classic Pinot Noir, Dalton's Petite Sirah and Fume Blanc and Recanati's Yasmin White. If your "reasonable" is in the $20 range, the possibilities are much wider. The good thing is that at this price range you can afford to experiment until you find a few wines that you really like!

Is the Yarden 2006 Rom really that good?

Yes. "worth it" is a subjective term but the 2006 Rom is awesome and I enjoyed it more than the 2007. I am looking forward to tasting the 2008.

Am I the only person bothered by Rogov's scoring system in his books?

Many involved Israeli wine aficionados found it problematic. Besides the obvious score inflation, there are a number of other problems with it but scores sell wine far more than reviews.

[Stephen Weil]

Just one quick comment.
In this game, and I like you as a hobby and not in the bussiness, you can get a bad bottle. It happens.
In value for money, dont right off the Barkan Reserve series and Assemblge. There Altitude is more expensive but is great.

Yarden in golders green have a good selection and prices are ok for UK

Regards
Steve
Ra anana Isr