Top Red Wines Jewish Week 2012

[Gabriel Geller]

Hi Folks,

While I know Yossie Horwitz as being part of the panel who published it, I'd be very much interested to read what do you guys think of the top 4 of this list:

(quoting the JW):

TOP Israeli Wines

1 (tie) Alexander, Reserve, Syrah, 2009
1 (tie) Golan Heights Winery, Yarden, Pinot Noir, 2007
2 Dalton, Shiraz, 2009
3 (tie) Carmel, Single Vineyard Sha'al, Late Harvest Gewurztraminer, 2007
3 (tie) Bazelet HaGolan, Cabernet Sauvignon, 2009
4 Domaine du Castel, Blanc du Castel, Chardonnay, 2009(!!!)

http://www.thejewishweek.com/topredwines2012

Personally, I must admit that I raised my eyebrows when I read number 1 and 4...

Best,

GG

[Shawn Johnson]

I couldn't believe it either.

[Craig Winchell]

I haven't tasted any, or many, of these wines, but it's not worth getting your panties in a bunch. It is, after all, just the Jewish Week. But even if it were more comprehensive, or with more judges of greater reputation, it wouldn't be any more valid to any given individual. Your opinion is more valid to you than anyone else's opinion. In the industry, I don't think the Jewish Week's opinion holds very much weight- at least not enough to make or break the fortunes of any particular winery.

[Yehoshua Werth]

Scratching head on the Castel...

[Yossie Horwitz]

Not really sure what the question is but here are a few facts that may be helpful. A panel of eight pretty knowledgeable wine folks blind tasted over 250 wines. The panel represented a wide range of palates including more than half of whom have extensive tasting experience in both kosher and non-kosher wines. The wines tasted were submitted by the wineries and obviously not every wine was represented ("Top" is obviously relative to the wines tasted). With respect to the 2009 Castel, out of the 12 times I have tried this wine, 8 have suffered from reduction and 4 have been delicious. While I didn't rank the wine as high as some of my fellow judges, the wine we blind tasted was not reduced.

Despite Craig's unnecessary dig at the reputation of the panel, the vast majority of whom I am pretty sure he doesn't know at all, I agree with him that the Jewish Week isn't a professional magazine and the tasting and guide is simply provided as a service to kosher wine consumers looking for some buying advice. As with any other list of recommendations and as was alluded to on another thread, you need to trust your own palate first and foremost and to the extent you are looking for outside advice, finding a critic or wine writer whose palate is similar to yours is of utmost importance given the subjectivity of taste. That said, the guide does have some sales impact and it would behoove the various wineries who didn't participate or only partially participated, to send a better representation of their wines yesterday. Going out on a limb, I'd venture that the Weiss brothers benefited from the publicity and high ranking on their Power to the People which resulted in some nicely increased sales....

[Craig Winchell]

Yossie, what makes you think it was a dig at the Jewish Week tasting panel, as opposed to being a dig at tasting panels in general? Blind tasting is no better than anecdotal evidence, if not subjected to the scrutiny of statistical analysis. Even then, you yourself discuss the wide range of palates, which means that anaysis of variance is called for, because similar scores could have wildly different meanings. I know at least some of you guys, (certainly not all, but I'm sure I've sold to many of you in the past) I know that you've been drinking wine seriously for years. But I don't even trust Parker's palate as definitive, so why should I trust yours? As you know, I don't consider a critical tasting panel any more valid than a wine critic, and we all know that I do not consider professional critics to be any more legitimate than any other wine lover, because familiarity can be developed and experience gained, but a person either likes a wine or doesn't, and to each his own. On the other hand, if you personally, or the others I know, were to recommend a wine to try, I'd take you up on it, just like I did when Raccah recommended I try the Shiloh wines at the Herzog tasting. I'm sure everyone there was a stand-up guy/gal, well meaning, and intent upon choosing wines representing the best of what the kosher world has to offer. You yourself acknowledged the limitations.

In answer to your statement about Shirah, and the bump they got from the Jewish Week rating, I can say definitively that with the amount they make and sell, that is no doubt true. But to them, 10 cases of sales is a very, very significant quantity, whereas for a substantially greater production, 50 cases might be a drop in the bucket, totally insignificant.

The thread was begun due to Gabriel's disagreement with some the panel's scores, when based upon his own experience. Others agreed. Basically, I told then they shouldn't be surprised that experiences differed. Which is what you said.

[Gabriel Geller]

With respect to the 2009 Castel, out of the 12 times I have tried this wine, 8 have suffered from reduction and 4 have been delicious. While I didn't rank the wine as high as some of my fellow judges, the wine we blind tasted was not reduced.

Interesting as that explains indeed a lot though this is the first time I read a report that some bottles of the C '09 didn't suffer from reduction. When I visited the winery in November the Ben Zaken's admitted totally that the wine had undergone reduction without pointing out that this was not the case for all the bottles produced. The wine was also available in most Jerusalem's wine shops despite that, and probably some shops still have bottles on their shelves. I remember that Rogov discussed the matter on this forum saying that Eli Ben Zaken recognized that and would give a replacement/refund to disappointed customers but I always thought that releasing the wine in that condition, especially a 130-150 shekel/bottle, wasn't the smartest thing to do. Now Yossie with your explanation this matter can be considered as partially solved. Just a personal anecdote to close the subject: A few weeks ago, one of my best customers came to the shop with some friends and said he wanted to enjoy a good Chardonnay with us and do a lechaim. So he bought a bottle of the C '10 that's in the shop's wine fridge and we opened it together, the wine was of course quite a treat. But I can't imagine my embarrassment if the wine had been a reduced '09... As to the Yarden PN '07, while it's a good wine I was personally surprised to see it ranking number 1, that's all.

Going out on a limb, I'd venture that the Weiss brothers benefited from the publicity and high ranking on their Power to the People which resulted in some nicely increased sales....

I'm sure you're right on this and good for them!

[Sam M]

My opinion , for what it's worth, is that the list serves a very useful purpose as guidance to readers of Jewish week. I didn't agree with some of the ratings and I will try some others that I never previously considered. The panel is as valid as any group of un biased wine drinkers. Many wine store personell are not so knowledgeable on kosher wines and their advice is misleading. The end result , I hope is opening up the world of fine kosher wines to new consumers.

Sam

[Isaac Chavel]

question:

Yossie, what makes you think it was a dig at the Jewish Week tasting panel, as opposed to being a dig at tasting panels in general?

answer:

It is, after all, just the Jewish Week.

partially mitigated by:

But even if it were more comprehensive, or with more judges of greater reputation, it wouldn't be any more valid to any given individual.

[Craig Winchell]

Isaac, I see what you're saying. But what I meant was, a local weekly Jewish newspaper, like the Rocky Mountain Jewish Times or the Jewish Journal, but one of several competing weekly local Jewish newspapers in the metropolitan New York area, albeit the largest. Limited in scope, and limited in distribution, a throw-away of a genre typically suitable for wrapping fish. I know the Jewish Journal is distributed free of charge, paid for by ads and subsidies, and at least in the past, the Jewish Week was the same type of thing. Content provided only as a vehicle for the ads. I know, sounds like many internet start-ups. But the internet startups of that type that made it big offered services that few could afford to be without, or novel services which were difficult to find, justified to keep on the desktop despite the ads. Typically, most Jewish weekly local newspapers are still little more than birdcage lining. At least the Jewish Press, which I think of in an even worse light, is beholden as well and caters to the consumers who purchase it- a particular kind of consumer who relishes yellow and sensational journalism of the worst kind.

In reading what I wrote yesterday about the Jewish Press readership, that isn't really fair to some readers, who buy the paper for the restaurant listings, or just because it provides a comprehensive, though highly biased, review of happenings in the observant Jewish world. Even my bro-in-law buys it (though why, I don't know), and I have placed ads in there before, no doubt branding me as complicit in pandering. And also in the Jewish Week, which as I say is on a different, higher, madrega, but still falls short. And also in the Jewish Journal, which I pick up and keep in my bathroom as reading material. Yes, I'm complicit. What can I say? It's my dark secret.

[Yehoshua Werth]

To give a little smile toard the tasters...

Bottles show differently in different situations!
The Yarden Pinot could have been the best Pinot of the run and it just landed on that desk that day.
The Castel.. I have yet to taste an 09' White I liked at all (love the grand vin 09') YET and I trust his statement; Yossie sais he has had some good bottles!
Were all the bottles given = time to open up and if so; some may have not shown as well being either lighter wines or peaked needing only 30 minutes to open. Some of the Heavier reds may have needed more time.
Great that some local boys made a great wine and WON! Go Shirah!!
Thoughts???

[Yossie Horwitz]

Agreed that bottles show differently. I have actually been giving this a lot of thought recently as bottles have shown drastically different when tasting them in Israel and the US under varying circumstances. The topic of how wines are served/poured/presented at public tastings in the US/Israel is a topic worthy of a stand-alone thread as I believe it influences sales and marketing and am sometimes astounded at the lack of effort put into ensuring a wine served at a public tasting "shows" properly.

My issue was actually with Craig's dig at the people on the panel as opposed to the Jewish Week which doesn't purport to be a serious wine magazine but simply provides its readers with a nice list of kosher wines selected by a good group of diverse palates. The "issue" with the list is that, since the wines submitted weren't close to being comprehensive, its not a representative list of the best kosher wines out there.

To answer Yehoshua's question, the wines were given time to open and were, for the most part served at the right temperature. They were also tasted together with their peers (Cabs w/ Cabs, Syrah w/ Syrah).

[Craig Winchell]

Gee whiz, Yossie, you do take things personally. The fact is that I never said anything bad about the people on the tasting panel. All I said was that people with greater reputations wouldn't have a panel of any greater validity to any individual palate. Don't take it so personally. Gee.

[Gabriel Geller]

Gosh I start feeling sorry for having posted this thread! I wasn't looking for forumites to argue who is abilitated or not to judge the wines but was rather willing to read about people's opinion about the wines that were selected by the JW panel.

Bottom line: I personally would have certainly not selected the Castel whether or not a good bottle as most bottles have undergone reduction and I find such selection misleading IMHO.

As well, I'd have not selected the Yarden PN '07 on top of the list either but that's really my own personal taste.

Best,

GG