Have we been hijacked by bloggers & aspiring "journalist"?

[Craig Winchell]

You know, you're correct, Yakov F, there are many old posters no longer posting here. They could. They could contribute here, they could make a difference. This forum is a blank slate, and people who are interested can make of it what they wish. It ain't my fault that they aren't taking advantage of it, utilizing their creativity to custom-make a forum that speaks to them and for them.

[Robin Garr]

I'm just going to step in briefly at this point, then leave you good folks to continue hashing out a consensus.

But:

The posting of TNs is of course welcome and of wide interest, and in fact is the central mission of this forum. But posting a link to a blog that contains the TN is not. This may seem like a subtle distinction to some, but it is indeed a matter of principle in which I believe Rogov strongly supported. I'm not sure I am appreciating the difficulty associated with pasting the text of an article or TN into the body of a post....

I completely agree with this, and would add that it is our general policy in the other forums as well. Please do post TNs (and other wine-related discussions) here; please avoid merely linking to blogs and other forums, which take the discussion away from this community.

This is very simple, I think, and very reasonable. Thank you, Yamit, for pointing this out; and thanks to the others who seem to agree.

[Gabriel Geller]

I completely agree with this, and would add that it is our general policy in the other forums as well. Please do post TNs (and other wine-related discussions) here; please avoid merely linking to blogs and other forums, which take the discussion away from this community.

This is very simple, I think, and very reasonable. Thank you, Yamit, for pointing this out; and thanks to the others who seem to agree.

That's a point I also agree about. Craig, Isaac C and David Raccah, you've got my support for the opinions you have expressed in this thread.

Yamit: although I disagree as previously said with a number of the points you wrote in your first post, you definitely deserve the credit for bringing up a topic that obviously many forumites were waiting around the corner for it to show up so they could react and speak out their thoughts on the direction this forum should take in their opinion. I hope the opinions that have been posted in this thread will also encourage both old and new members to take a more active role and share with all of us their experiences with wine.

Best,

GG

[Daniel Monsey NY]

make wine, not war.

[David Raccah]

I will close this discussion out with what I just posted on a different thread, about the Syrah wines I tasted. Honestly being "asked" or "forced" to post the content in a forum posts ruins the content. For many reasons, the links and the context to previous topics of discussion are lost, a thing that blogs do much better than forums. Further, pictures and placement are lost. Finally, the format of a forum does not lend to longer posts.

Either way, I pasted the entirety of the blog post (minus the recipe) and hope it works. The fact that the link backs are missing really does make the content static in nature and not as fluid as it could be.

I will now stop talking about this and go about my day..
David

[Pinchas L]

Hi David,

I admire your humility and ability to be so accommodating.

I would however like to comment that given the thoroughness of your posts and their thought provoking and comment eliciting nature, they justify a thread of their own. Understandably, you like to participate in Harry's traditional weekend thread, but your wish not to interfere with the flow of the weekend thread coupled with your wealth and breadth of insight might warrant that you briefly mention the wines you had over the weekend in Harry's thread, and then point everyone to your designated thread for the rest of the story. Seemingly, this is the direction you are taking of your own accord, and it might in fact be the best course to take.

Allow me to add that, personally, whatever you do is fine.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[YoelA]

I'm not as concerned about the links to blogs as some, but Robin's the boss when it comes to policy and I have no qualms about going with her ruling.

However, I see some concerns about recent trends on this forum that show we are moving away from the nature of Rogov's forum.

1. Intentionally or not, the trend has been to focus on kosher wines. There is little discussion, tasting notes or otherwise, on non-kosher Israeli wines, which are made by the majority of Israeli wineries, especially the newer ones.

2. There is no-one or combination of ones to replace Rogov in:

- visiting as many Israeli wineries as possible and producing annual reports on new releases
- tasting, reporting on, and answering questions about non-Israeli wines, both those imported into Israel and those not imported
- and generally tasting the volume of wines he went through regularly

3. We are not seeing participation from Rogov's non-Israeli correspondents such as Birger

All in all, the scope of discussion on this forum has been dramatically decreasing, and there seems to be no-one whom I can ask about non-kosher and non-Israeli wines. This liniting scope may be a natural occurrence, and there might be little or nothing that we can (or are willing) to do about it, but I thought it worth bringing up.

[Jonathan K]

I am glad that this has been ironed out. I have enjoyed some renewed interaction on this forum.
As for comments on non-kosher wines, I have posted about them on the weekend wines thread on the occasions that there is something to post but it is fairly lonely to do so on this forum.

[Pinchas L]

Hi Yoel,

While sharing your concerns, I don't know what can be done to get posts about Israeli wine that is not kosher, perhaps we should offer an incentive, one shekel per post about a wine that is not kosher .

Its a subject I think about and wonder what might be the cause for the low level of participation by formerly active members, and why new members are not joining the forum. While pondering these issues, I briefly visited some other forums, mostly those whose official language is Hebrew, and have noticed that they too suffer from low levels of participation, so that it does not seem that our former members have decided to spend their time elsewhere. Perhaps Israelis and Jews consider drinking wine, like having sex, some dirty thing you do but about which you rarely write and never ask advice. My conclusion is that wine culture in Israel is not developed to the point some of us here are led to believe. As that will improve, so will the vibrancy and the scope of the discussions on this forum.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[Yossie Horwitz]

I have been a little crazy recently back and forth between NYC and Israel first specially to attend IsraWinExpo and now for my sister's wedding so I haven't had much time to post in recent days and I usually avoid these types of discussions that aren't directly/solely related to wine/wineries but, given where and how this post has evolved, I wanted to post my figurative 2 cents for whatever it's worth:

(1) While I think it would be helpful to have at least the TNs of the various members on the forum for more comprehensive searching purposes, I hear Raccah and others on cutting out the information and given the fact that a select few are working extra hard on keeping the forum alive by providing wine-related information, it's a little disingenuous to find fault with them preferring not to cannibalize their personal blogs by providing all the information here. In general, i don't think comparisons to Rogov are fair, especially in this context as it was HIS forum and by its very nature, self promotional for him which isn't the case for the other writers/bloggers on this site, many of whom are pretty good writers and have plenty of knowledge to share with us.

(2) Agreed that the posting of one's personal blogs, articles and ect. has certainly increased since Rogov's passing but, as I discussed in depth in a recent newsletter, this is the natural evolution of things as others try to help fill the void of information left by his passing. Unlike some others, I am certain that there is no single replacement for Rogov but rather a few folks writing about Israeli and kosher wines in English will collectively fill the void and the more the merrier (quality remaining hopefully at a reasonably high level but this will be self-selective). For many reasons no one person can really assume all that Rogov did. With Rogov gone, I believe people are more free with their thoughts and opinions here and elsewhere (since they don't need to worry about an indisputable (for the forum) voice disagreeing with them) and, while sometimes the it can be a bit much sometime, I think it is a development to be encouraged as the more voices heard the better. What would be helpful is not opening a new thread every time a forumite has posted a new TN but rather adding it to a relevant thread (or starting a new thread if its a relevant topic deserving of its own thread (i.e. posts about Gotham's event, KFWE/IFWE or IsraWinExpo could all be contained under the initial thread on the topic). This would primarily serve to contain relevant information under the same threads which makes for easier reading but also to limit the appearances of over-posting self-promotional threads.

(3) I do think that cutting down on the flagrant self-promotion (talking about how great one is as opposed to providing relevant and interesting information about wines/wineries) occurring recently by some here it would be most appreciated by many. Let's stick to discussions about wine and similar topics and leave it to others to compliment our abilitites.

(4) While this started to happen WAY before Rogov died, it is obvious that many of the old-time forumites who have been participating on this (and predecessor) forum for nearly a decade have left, as without Rogov's input (and almost no discussion about non-kosher wines) they find little value here. Many have expressed this to me privately and also stated as much a few months ago on these pages. Unfortunately I am not sure there is much to do about this but it might make sense to limit the endless discussions of Jewish law, custom (and vitriol) to specific threads (which people can decide to read or not) and try to prevent it from spilling over onto every thread as this will simply serve to alienate many people. That said, it may be that the current status of the forum, whereby the only people who find real interest here are kosher-focused individuals (and a few passionate English-speaking Israeli wine lovers) is where it is headed, and if so C'est la vie - each member will determine for him/herself whether its current manifestation suits him/her or not..

(5) Lastly, while I'm sure it's great we have all become comfortable enough with each other for a little ribbing, I'd caution on letting things get too loose with the personal (positive or negative) comments, innuendos, and random conversation as it detracts from the forum which I hope we can continue to maintain as a relevant place for quality discussions on wines. Most of the Israeli/Hebrew forums I have [mostly] listened into over the years are far removed from the quality of discussion that sometimes surfaces, has far less knowledgeable individuals and is mostly random sniping, ect for which I would think most of us have little use.

[Craig Winchell]

Just wanna say one thing.... Robin Garr is a guy! Always has been! Robin, maybe we should have pictures at our posts, so people won't be confused. I guess I should reference this to a recent post in this thread which spoke of adhering to *her* ruling (meaning Robin's).

[Stephen Weil]

Hi,
I personally feel that we are hitting the heart of the Rogov's Place issue. We were all children of Rogov, and he was a very benign and supportive parent. We basically revolved around his thoughts and ideas. Most of our comments were questions or comments to him. He's gone, and we're orphans. This is the process of looking for balance after losing someone important. I know that I haven't found my Rogov replacement, although I enjoy many of the comments and reviews that are posted.

But, I am really on here to discuss and learn about wine. I have a pretty good handle on my Freudian parent-loss issues. So, the jockeying for power that I see shows that we are trying to move on. But, I really only care about people's comments on wine and related issues. Until we elect a new emperor, we will all be fumbling towards Jerusalem. Daniel Rogov is not an easy act to follow. Good luck all.

Well put.
Yamit I go along with your trend of thought. The forum lost its structure. You hit the nail on the head when describing the main contributers to the forum who are just a handful of people promoting themselves and jockeying to control the forum.

There are many other good points raised but until there is a new emperor it wont change.

[Robin Garr]

I will now stop talking about this and go about my day..
David

David, thanks for your generosity. Allow me to make one very important point, though, which may help clear the air: I don't mind at all if you include a link to the blog item within the post! That is perfectly acceptable. I ask only that forum mosts include substantive content so they can yield immediate discussion within this community. Offering simple text, with a link to the blog for the fully formatted version, is perfectly fine.

Does this help a bit?

[Robin Garr]

Just wanna say one thing.... Robin Garr is a guy! Always has been! Robin, maybe we should have pictures at our posts, so people won't be confused. I guess I should reference this to a recent post in this thread which spoke of adhering to *her* ruling (meaning Robin's).

Thanks, Craig! As the son of a strong and confident woman and husband of another, I am quite comfortable with the notion of gender equality. Ha! I take absolutely no offense by having my online identity confused thanks to an ambiguous name. (Think Robin Williams or Robin Hood.)

But for the record, yes, I am absolutely male in every particular.

[Pinchas L]

But for the record, yes, I am absolutely male in every particular.

Hi Robin,

But can you be an emperor, too, since that is what some are looking for. And I don't think a Robin Hood would satisfy them.

-> Pinchas