New Rogov Brandy

[Adam Montefiore]

After discussions with the late Daniel Rogov's wife, Carmel Winery is launching a very special, unique brandy in Daniel Rogov's memory. It will be called Rogov Brandy. We intend to launch this with a rare brandy tasting at our Rishon Le Zion Cellars in the next two weeks. I would like to invite someone from the forum, who would enjoy the opportunity to taste old brandies, to represent the forum. One place only. If you are interested, please contact me on adam@carmelwines.co.il
Regards,
Adam Montefiore
Carmel Winery

[Craig Winchell]

Adam. I hereby volunteer. Of course, the offer includes the flight, right? I am well trained, grew up with the best Cognacs money could buy (nonkosher), regularly glug down distilled beverages, and know them well. Oh, and I can boast an "A" in Distilled Beverage Technology, taught by the late Dr. Lynn Williams at Davis. I'll taste anything you throw at me, and give my honest opinion privately and publicly. What more could you want? Of course, if you want to thrill someone, I'm sure my son Gedalia David, Shatnez tester extraordinaire and Certified Bartender, would be happy to come along for the ride.

[jgpersky]

Nice tribute. Thank you.

[Isi M]

After receiving a very unpleasant phone call that I will not relate here, I decided to remove the text I posted here, that reflected my personal view on this, and that did not pleased some people.

I thought a forum was a public place to express your personal views on some subjects.

It seems that I was wrong ....

[Craig Winchell]

Well, it wasn't me, so I'll express my views...

It is an open forum, and you may post whatever you wish, and your personal views will be accepted as such. But that doesn't mean that someone won't disagree with you. But if there is disagreement, it shoudl be posted here publicly, messaged or mailed privately. Really, a phone call, especially an obnoxious or otherwise unpleasant one, should not bean option, unless previously welcomed by the individual.

I , for one, would welcome the opportunity to see what you posted.

[Pinchas L]

Hi Isi,

Not knowing what you've posted, but since you don't seem to feel that there was anythinbg wrong with it, I encourage you to reconsider and post again. I second Craig's view, and feel that no one should be bullied to retract their posts. It is the plurality of views and opinions showing up in a forum that gives it relevence.

Best Regards,
-> Pinchas

[Isi M]

Ok, my post was as follows : (I don't remember the exact words used) :

I said that the "idea would be even better if the profit was given to a non profit organization that is wine related".
And I added that ... "who am I to interfere in this ..."

My 2 posts were classified as : "You have removed one insulting post and replaced it with another!!!".

My post was maybe understood as an personal and vicious attack on a company.
But it was my own personal view.

[Pinchas L]

Hi Isi,

I'm glad you chose to place your post back on this forum. Your views as those of everyone else on this forum are welcome and important for the vivacity of this forum. As to the contents of your post, I think they fall safely within the bounds of what is acceptable, and I don't understand why anyone would find it objectionable, nor insulting.

Best,
-> Pinchas

[Robin Garr]

Hi Isi,

I'm glad you chose to place your post back on this forum. Your views as those of everyone else on this forum are welcome and important for the vivacity of this forum. As to the contents of your post, I think they fall safely within the bounds of what is acceptable, and I don't understand why anyone would find it objectionable, nor insulting.

Best,
-> Pinchas

Although it's not my intent to tell the good members of Rogov's forum how to behave, I would agree with everything Pinchas said here, and thank him for saying it.

[Samuel A]

Isi - I agree with the others who have advocated not removing your posts. You have been a dedicated forumite for quite some time and have always been respectful and insightful. As I understood your post, you were raising a question (whether direct or indirect) of whether it is appropriate of the Carmel winery to attempt to profit off of Rogov's name. That, even as an knock on effect, people will make a decision to purchase the brandy in question solely because it has Rogov's name on it. I can see how one, particularly someone as savvy and knowledgeable as yourself, can reasonably formulate this view. I also can see the other side of the coin, which is that Carmel's approach is simply a means of paying homage to a late critic who had a passion for brandy.

I myself think that the real reason could be a combo of both sides of the coin. I don't, however, think that it necessarily follows that Carmel MUST disgorge all or a even portion of its profit from the sales of the brandy.

If I'm not mistaken, you, too, have used Rogov's name as part of your "premium wine consulting" business. See http://www.premiumkosherwine.co.il/ As far as I'm aware, nothing on your website indicates that a portion of your sales are being donated to charity. Yet, you interweave Rogov's bio and scores with the wines that you sell and with respect to which you "consult."

Granted, you presumably did this with Rogov's explicit approval. But does this matter? In this regard, i could see how your criticsm could come across as hypocritical. Accordingly, without knowing more details about the bone you are picking, your criticism of Carmel and its alleged intentions could seem to some to carry questionable weight.

[Andrew Breskin]

I for one would like to learn more about the Brandy!

[David Raccah]

Wow - this thread has really gone away from the initial premise.

1) Isi did ASK and received permission from Rogov, he stated it in a forum thread himself
2) Isi's comments are fine to ask, but in the end, the Cognac is being made with his wife's approval, which sounds like it is done for the correct reasons
3) Email Adam yourselves and ask him. He is a very honest and upright individual. Maybe he sees it your way or maybe not.

Either way, I am 100% in Andrew's court, I would love to hear more about this cognac, and if it is good, I plan to buy two, one to taste and one to keep.

David

[Isi M]

Hi,

Regarding the website :

- I have never mentioned the website here in this forum, nor have I ever used the website to try to sell anything here, besides the day it was launched, and on Rogov's request to post something about it.

- Samuel : as mentioned by others, Rogov's name on the website was with his full agreement. In exchange there is a page on the website promoting his book. So if you had taken a bit more of time to think before answering you would have understood also the difference. And yes it DOES matter that it was done with Rogov's approval.

- But again, this is a forum ..... and here lies the problem : if Carmel or anybody has a problem with my personal views, THIS is the place to react .... not over the phone....

That's all the problem of a forum vs commercial interest of a company.

A forum is meant to agree AND disagree with other INDIVIDUALS ...

They should know that there is a time to let people express themselves freely....
This forum is not a commercial support where you can try to control your image.

And that is exactly my point ....

[Samuel A]

That's all the problem of a forum vs commercial interest of a company.

A forum is meant to agree AND disagree with other INDIVIDUALS ...

They should know that there is a time to let people express themselves freely....
This forum is not a commercial support where you can try to control your image.
...

I agree 100% with all of this. No point in arguing about the other stuff. It's sort of old news anyway.

[E Segel]

Regarding the website...And yes it DOES matter that it was done with Rogov's approval.

Without taking any one side or another, I will point out that Adam in his original post clearly states that the brandy is being launched with the approval of Daniel Rogov's wife, which would seem to place this in direct comparison to Isi's website (nice collection btw) which also has Rogov's approval to use his name.

[Jonathan D]

I tend to agree with E Segal.

But on Isi's point, I would have thought that, according to conventional intellectual property norms, Carmel should be paying Mr. joroff for the right to use Rogov's name - not a charity. I'm not an IP lawyer, but i would think that the Rogov trade name is an asset of David Joroff's estate. It seems to me that it is Mrs. Joroff who is being charitable here - whether knowingly or unknowingly...

[Mike_F]

Isi, Jonathan, et al...

I honestly think that the tone of this discussion is completely out of line. None of you know how Carmel intends to allocate the income from this brandy, and whether or not the discussions with Rogov's widow included any financial considerations. And with all due respect, such issues are none of our business.

Most of you have no idea regarding the depth of friendship between Rogov and Adam Montefiore and how insulting your posts must be to a person who was a true (in contrast to a virtual) friend of Rogov, but don't take my word for it, just read the following comment from Rogov on this very forum - viewtopic.php?f=29&t=40282&p=332044&hilit=Montefiore#p332044 .

Mike

[DavidPer]

Gentlemen and fellow forum members:

As I am sure that Ze'ev Dunie named his lovely Chenin Blanc "James" to honor the memory of Ronnie James and not to make a profit off of his name, so I am convinced that Carmel Wines has nothing but the purest intentions in naming the brandy "Rogov" to honor the memory of Daniel Rogov. Adam Montefiore was one of the key speakers at the evening honoring Rogov just a few weeks before his untimely death.

While everyone is entitled to their opinions and to air them on this forum, I think that there is something wrong with looking for ulterior motives in naming this new brandy `"Rogov", especially considering that Adam wrote in his initial announcement that the widow agreed to the naming of the brandy in his honor.

[Isi M]

Dear Mike_F,

I don't care how Carmel intends to allocate their income.

When you say : "such issues are none of our business", please do not include me and my other virtual friends in this.
With all due respect also. Of course.

The friendship between Rogov and other persons is something that doesn't regard me.
But once it gets on the forum, it is not personal anymore.........

Regarding "insulting posts" : coming from you I will take it with a big smile.

In case you have some concentration problem, the issue here is not who was the best friend to Rogov, or how Carmel will allocate their profit or losses, ...

The issue I raised here is about freedom of speech and about commercial interest in a forum.
I made a personal statement regarding my views that draw almost immediate reactions from a company by phone AND email (why not in the forum ?)....

So I don't know what is so "out of line" here ......

[Craig Winchell]

I just care about the brandy, pure and simple. Does it taste good? What is the difference between it and any other brandies that Carmel has released? Why was it named Rogov (perhaps a blend that it was felt would be particularly well enjoyed by him, or perhaps he had actually had a hand in the blend, or perhaps he had originally come to Carmel with the idea for a blend such as this, etc.)? And then, of course, the particulars of this particular blend or bottling (alc. by volume, mean and median ages and weighted average age of blend, where the fruit originated, what varieties, what is it Carmel is trying to illustrate with the blend, what is it Carmel hopes to accomplish with it?

Be that as it may, I recognize that other statements made here in this thread have elicited much reaction. I don't understand why, quite frankly, nor do I care why. Motivations are often questioned, and probably should be, when it comes to the ins and outs of marketing. A trade or brand name is typically considered an integral part of the product marketing, as much so as the label design. This brandy is a limited production product, which means it will likely have an asking price far in excess of Carmel's non-limited brandies. I see nothing wrong with the question, whether rhetorical or not, though in the later case, one must be prepared for no answer to be forthcoming. Nor should anyone feel threatened by it. Carmel obviously is naming the product in order to facilitate sales at the brandy's price point, or at least feels it will not negatively impact sales at that price point. Quite rightly so. In the end, it is a business decision.

I decided to add to my post: The original post which cause all of this hullabaloo neither took Carmel to task for naming the brandy Rogov nor praised Carmel, but simply stated that having some share of the profit go to a nonprofit would make things even better, without in any way claiming that it would be bad if it didn't. Why on earth that sentiment should be divisive is well beyond my level of comprehension. It wasn't even questioning Carmel's motives.

[David Scop]

Ok, I'll settle this before it gets worse.

Unless the Brandy is not ready for public consumption, and my opinion is published here (publicly) and privately simultaneously, I'll take one for the forum. If its that bad, we'll revisit in a few years to allow for proper aging of the next batch.

Tishbi had a great brandy, one that Daniel adored. Time for a another one.

I play by Rogov's rules. I don't make any competing product, and my connection to Brandy, if at all, is as a collector of wine and alcohol.

And i did meet Daniel for coffee at Rechov Basel's outdoor cafe'

Gamliel and others can vouch for me, if needed.

Business class seat, expenses paid and 1 week notice required, no weekend stay please.

David

[Isi M]

I decided to add to my post: The original post which cause all of this hullabaloo neither took Carmel to task for naming the brandy Rogov nor praised Carmel, but simply stated that having some share of the profit go to a nonprofit would make things even better, without in any way claiming that it would be bad if it didn't. Why on earth that sentiment should be divisive is well beyond my level of comprehension. It wasn't even questioning Carmel's motives.

Thanks Craig for synthesizing so good in 2 sentences.

Whitout raising another unwanted polemic, I would say that in Israel we do like hullabaloo's .... maybe too often....but we do like ....

Isi

[ChaimShraga]

I hope I'm not being morbid here, but what really caught my eye in this thread was the "new" in "New Rogov Brandy". You know, as in "New xxx Releases". My first thought was "WTF? Brandy from the after-life?"

[Isaac Chavel]

My first thought was "WTF? Brandy from the after-life?"

love it!