Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34433
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
David M. Bueker wrote:I will not pay restaurant blood money on wine.
Dave Erickson wrote:Kelly Young wrote:Tip on the tab regardless of what it is compromised of.
That's right.
We're all big boys and girls, and we know going in how restaurant bottle pricing works. Complain about markup all you want, but don't make the servers the target of your protest.
PS: Wnissen, somehow I don't think it is up to the diner to decide the value of the inputs that went into what was ordered.
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34433
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Robin Garr wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:I will not pay restaurant blood money on wine.
I feel your pain, but bear in mind that restaurants operate on very tight margins and argue that they need to profit well on alcohol in order to make the numbers work overall.
Of course, this raises the question of how BYO joints make their numbers work ...
David M. Bueker wrote:As for making the business model work, the restaurants in Jersey seem to do ok, and there's a ton of BYOs. Yes they close from time to time (ok - more often than that, but so do restaunrants with licenses. Laura and I have been visiting Beth Sheligo in southern Jersey for over 10 years now (thank you old WLDG!!!), and many of the same BYOs are still going strong.
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34433
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Rahsaan wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:As for making the business model work, the restaurants in Jersey seem to do ok, and there's a ton of BYOs. Yes they close from time to time (ok - more often than that, but so do restaunrants with licenses. Laura and I have been visiting Beth Sheligo in southern Jersey for over 10 years now (thank you old WLDG!!!), and many of the same BYOs are still going strong.
I'm sure rent is one big cost that can vary a lot (even within cities depending on when the restaurant negotiated terms) and shape the willingness of a restaurant to allow BYO.
Neil Courtney
Wine guru
3257
Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:39 pm
Auckland, New Zealand
Mark Kogos wrote:Neil Courtney wrote:Redwinger wrote:Neil-
In NZ is "service" included in the bill similar to most of Europe or is the tab built on the American model of a gratuity added by the customer?
'Winger
In general there is no tipping for anything here in NZ. Unfortunately, it is creeping into some areas, probably because of tourists who tip anyway. We have what is called a Minimum Wage here, of only $NZ12.50/hour, but any trainee wait person will start on this pay scale, so we do not have waiters that need to get tips to survive. We do have the markup problem as well which is why we will generally not go to a restaurant that does not allow BYOW. Even a 'corkage' charge of $20 a bottle can look like good value when you see some of the wine list prices. Generally corkage runs at around $5 per person. Or should that be 'screwage' now?
Neil
I definitely don't agree with that view on tipping in New Zealand. Almost to a man everyone I know who eats out in NZ tips on average 10%. If you are not tipping at all and going back to the same restaurants, you might want to check what they put in your food because you will not be popular. No one can live on $12.50 an hour!!!
Mark
Neil Courtney wrote:Mark Kogos wrote:Neil Courtney wrote: In general there is no tipping for anything here in NZ. Unfortunately, it is creeping into some areas, probably because of tourists who tip anyway. We have what is called a Minimum Wage here, of only $NZ12.50/hour, but any trainee wait person will start on this pay scale, so we do not have waiters that need to get tips to survive. We do have the markup problem as well which is why we will generally not go to a restaurant that does not allow BYOW. Even a 'corkage' charge of $20 a bottle can look like good value when you see some of the wine list prices. Generally corkage runs at around $5 per person. Or should that be 'screwage' now?
Neil
I definitely don't agree with that view on tipping in New Zealand. Almost to a man everyone I know who eats out in NZ tips on average 10%. If you are not tipping at all and going back to the same restaurants, you might want to check what they put in your food because you will not be popular. No one can live on $12.50 an hour!!!
Mark
Mark, yes I agree that $12.50 is not great but that is only the starting point. Most wait staff would be getting more than that. We don't eat out too much at all these days. Can not afford to, so we don't have a 'local' where they would recognise our faces.
Dale Williams
Compassionate Connoisseur
11175
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)
Dale Williams wrote:Alex,
I'm not a fan of restaurant wine pricing. But in fairness in NY for instance beyond actual cost per bottle, a restaurant owner often:
1) has premium real estate, high taxes, etc
2) has to pay for a liquor license, which isn't cheap and usually involves lawyers (and sometimes expensive community board action)
3) much higher rate of returns/rejects than retail
4)stemware, dishwashing, etc
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
Sam Platt
I am Sam, Sam I am
2330
Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:22 pm
Indiana, USA
Neil Courtney
Wine guru
3257
Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:39 pm
Auckland, New Zealand
Daniel Rogov wrote:Twp reminders
- as far as the wait-staff is concerned there is no more effort involved in opening and serving a bottle of wine that costs $500 than is involved in one costing $30.
-the restaurant's direct and indirect expenses should play no role whatever in tipping procedure.
Best
Rogov
Dale Williams
Compassionate Connoisseur
11175
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)
Daniel Rogov wrote:- as far as the wait-staff is concerned there is no more effort involved in opening and serving a bottle of wine that costs $500 than is involved in one costing $30.
-the restaurant's direct and indirect expenses should play no role whatever in tipping procedure.
Joy Patton wrote:As a wine professional in the restaurant industry, I am quite surprised to see so much complaining and argument about this subject. When one dines out, they are not paying just for food or wine, they are paying for an experience.
wnissen wrote:The fact is that restaurant owners have abdicated their responsibility to compensate their staff as professionals, turning all of us diners into employers in miniature, with the responsibility to provide staff compensation. I take this responsibility seriously. I also am not blind to the fact that servers rarely provide any additional service when I select a wine that costs a multiple of the cheapest bottle. At my favorite restaurant, the wines are paired by the half-glass with dishes, and I happily tip 30%, because that service is worth every penny! Darn right right I can tell the difference and decide accordingly!
AlexR wrote:My experience - I'm sorry, flame me if you wish - is that most waiters definitely do not deserve any money on top of the obscene mark-up because they know very little about the wines on their list.I gain nothing from them, so why in the world should I pay them something extra?
Howie Hart
The Hart of Buffalo
6389
Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm
Niagara Falls, NY
My first job (45 years ago!) was as a busboy in a local hotel restaurant. At the end of the night, the wait staff all pooled and split the tips, a portion shared with the busboys, but not management or kitchen. The division of tips was usually followed by a crap game.Bob Parsons Alberta. wrote:I have to point out that in most places up here a certain % of the servers total/final ring out goes to management, bartender and kitchen etc. I am sure this applies to many US establishments also.
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