Two Boutiques "Going Kosher": Whoops Make That Three

[SemionL]

Just recall as during forum visit couple of years ago, Golan Flam proudly
mentioned that they are largest non-kosher winery in the country...
Shit happens...

[Daniel Rogov]

Mike, Hi....

Thanks for the response. Appreciated.

Best
Rogov

[Lior Yogev]

Mike,

I don't think that's an integrity issue. Flam make terrific wines at all their price ranges and the only thing I'm sorry about is that they have to go through this expansive process, probably because they need the advantage in sales. i.e.: it's too bad that one of Israel's best wineries need to go kosher in order to sell their wines.
As for CdG - I think it is one of the best local wineries as well and I see no reason not to join their club/mailing list as well...

Lior.

[David L]

Didn't we just have fireworks in the States over the July 4th weekend? ]
Geez, my head still hurts!

Best,

David

[Michael P]

Mike,

I don't think that's an integrity issue. Flam make terrific wines at all their price ranges and the only thing I'm sorry about is that they have to go through this expansive process, probably because they need the advantage in sales. i.e.: it's too bad that one of Israel's best wineries need to go kosher in order to sell their wines.
As for CdG - I think it is one of the best local wineries as well and I see no reason not to join their club/mailing list as well...

Lior.

I'm not sure why it's too bad that one of Israel's best wineries needs to go kosher in order to sell their wines.

According to Wikipedia roughly 30% of the Jews in Israel consider themselves religious of some sort, perhaps more. This is a significant number. Moreover, religious Jews are exposed to wine every weekend with the Kiddush service which makes that 30% highly concentrated wine shoppers. While the bulk of the 30% are drinking primative Kiddush wines, it does make them a captive audience for finer wines. While Jews only make up roughly 75% of Israeli, the next largest portion is Muslim and Muslims for the most part don't drink alcohol as it is forbidden by the Quran.

To put in further perspective, recent data shows that 40% of Americans are wine drinkers (in general). If we assumed that ratio in Israel, and make some very broad assumptions religious Israeli's could consume close to 40% of Israeli fine wine (I am assuming that non-Haredi religious Jews buy significantly more fine wine than the average Israeli due to their Kiddush exposure, while Haredim buy less for various reasons).

Therefore one could argue that if 40% of your potential sales base (perhaps more if we assume Israeli wines sell better in foreign countries when placed on the Kosher shelf?) will only drink kosher it's hard to see why its too bad Flam is going Kosher - they are opening to 40% (minus the few who now won't drink it because it is Kosher) of their potential customer base. I do agree that the process can be more expensive, especially until sales ramp, but that's a business decision like any other such as buying a new vineyard or building a new facility.

As for Mike - I don't see how the romance part is really going to change at Flam. Golan will still be able to answer all the asinine questions and will have tremendous control over the winemaking process. The only change to your visit maybe having a guy with a beard pour the wine while Golan talks - That shouldn't be a big deal, they have people with beards in many countries.

[Matt Walter]

Very good news indeed, in my opinion! G-d willing, it will make those wineries even more successful and allow them to market their wines more successfully in Israel and abroad.

As Jews, how can we not be happy that more Jews can now enjoy these wines, and the Jews that produce them can enjoy more commercial success!

I will go out of my way to buy these wines when they become available.

Kol Tuv,
Matt

[HazelG]

I think it' s great. Really looking forward to the Kosher Flams, Tulips and especially the Sasloves.

Hazel

[Daniel Rogov]

Reading through several posts above I could not help but think that it may be time to remind some that our forum is most definitely not an exclusively Jewish enclave. True, many of us are Jewish and many based within Israel and some of are quite observant while others are not. Despite that, quite a few who read and post here are not Jewish and I think it important that we not push those people away by being overly cliquish. Those among our forum members and readers who are not Jewish or even who are Jewish and are not observant will be interested in Israeli wines because they offer excellence and not because they are kosher.

I realize that I am walking on proverbial hot coals by stating the above so let it be clearly understood that I have always and will always respect those whose interest is simultaneously in fine wine and dining and fine wines and dining that happen to be kosher. I simply do not want to excluse those who may not perceive kashrut as an issue in their lives.

Me thanks thee for understanding.

Best
Rogov

[Michael Weiser]

Thrilled to hear that they are going kosher as I too have read many of the TN's for these wines and found myself wishing they were kosher.

Daniel as to your comment about the Forum including non -jewish members etc.., As has been discussed very often we find people talking about a kosher restaurant or wine and how great it is and some respond that "for kosher its good". Of course your TN"s and scores are for the wine and there is no subjective or kosher curve if you will. However, to me a good winery going kosher allows those of us that are kosher and those that are not (jewish or not) to further our idea exchange and discussions re wine which is what this forum is all about. Until now the number of wines that "all" forumites could discuss was more limited now it is expanding to include 3 more very good wineries which means more wines to talk about amongst all us forumites.. so bring it on!!

Also regarding Tulip without going back to the previous thread re the winery wanting to go kosher and retaining the workers... I would just like to say "Kol Hakoved" (good work) to the winery and Kashrut organizations for working this out. I hope this puts the Kashrut Rabbi's who didnt get such great reviews in the previosu thread in a better light and redeemed in the eyes of those who frowned on them.

Lastly: Daniel, Mike F has now proven you wrong.

I am pleased that you have changed your stance. It is unfortunate that perhaps the strongest opposition to Kosher status is from our own people.

Nor do I know of any Israeli who has ever objected to a food product on the basis that it is kosher.


Best
Rogov

Regards, Michael

[Mike_F]

Lastly: Daniel, Mike F has now proven you wrong.

I am pleased that you have changed your stance. It is unfortunate that perhaps the strongest opposition to Kosher status is from our own people.

Nor do I know of any Israeli who has ever objected to a food product on the basis that it is kosher.


Best
Rogov

Regards, Michael

Sunshine, you really need to brush up on your reading comprehension. What aspects of my previous post quoted below do I need to explain slowly with pictures?

To your more general question, I buy wines from kosher wineries if something interesting is on offer at a local store - usually Asael's in Rehovot, but I am not a member of any of their customer clubs and I do not make any effort to buy directly from them.

[Z Spigelman]

Mike,
Before this blows up, maybe you should consider that your social and political comments (on many issues) seem to perturb some of the Forum members so you should expect some negative reaction. Yes - I am all for free speech but there is no need to get nasty in your responses.
Note: I will not comment or respond further on this issue - I said my piece.
Zvi

[Robbie Fowler]

I hadnt seen this thread before so sorry to hark back to the beginning,

A few years ago I felt that "going kosher" was a sign of desperation on the part of some small wineries. That may have been valid then but it is not now.

I would say - going kosher is a sign of desperation a few years ago, and all the more so today!

I heard that the wine owner guy at Tzora said we are too small to be/to afford to be kosher, but one day we will be. For them its achieving a goal. For Castel and Flam its a sign of desperation - our business model doesnt work, we cant compete in the general wine world, and we need to excel in a niche market to make ends meet.

The laws of Kashrut has not changed in 2000 years and all it basically means is who can touch it. Advances in technology wont help that.

So maybe you can explain what you mean by it not being a sign of desperation now, or why is was then?

[Daniel Rogov]

The move for smaller wineries switching over to kashrut started in about 2003. Keeping in mind that I am not an economist, I would hypothesize that in several cases wineries had already made enormous leaps in the quantity of wine they were producing and to their dismay found that they could not sell those larger amounts. Because the investment in vineyards and equipment had already been made they could not possibly cut back. Chalk that up to poor planning if you will and the switchover to kashrut was with the near desperate hope that their wines could exported to primarily American kashrut-observing Jews. In some cases that worked, in others it did not.

Today, the desperation is gone from the better small wineries because they are comfortably selling what they produce. These are wineries that have planned on expansion and growth over the last five to ten years but world economics have at least somewhat interfered with their ability to sell if/when they do grow. Not so much a "desperation" after the fact but a business strategy for future growth and development.

One might validly ask why a given winery cannot remain at its current production and profit level. Indeed, some expand out of greed or simply having "big eyes" and that is foolish. On the other hand, expansion at a well planned and well conceived pace is, in general, one of the inherent raisons d'etre of any sound economic institution. Simply stated, too often standing still and stagnation often walk hand-in-hand. There are of course exceptions to that and at least a few fine boutiques are maintaining both their level of production and their desire to continue with fully hands-on winemaking procedures. Indeed, some small wineries will not "go kosher". I do not, for example, perceive fine wineries such as those of Margalit, Sea Horse or Clos de Gat moving in that direction.

No matter how much we like to think of wine as full of romance (and it is), we should never lose track (we including both producers and consumers) that a winery is a business and at the end of each given period someone has to pay for the vineyards, the equipment, the physical plant, the salaries, and yes, even the telephone, electric and water bills. I remember very well the CEO of one of California's very best wineries once commenting at a symposium "dammit – even wineries use toilet paper".

Best
Rogov

[Isi M]

2 comments :

- most of the best wines produced in Israel are kosher
- most of the wineries understand that in order to sell 100$+ wines (the new 'trend') they need a niche market (the kosher market).

2 conclusions :

- kosher doesn't impair on quality
- winemakers are good cfo's

[Daniel Rogov]

Isi, Hi...


Back to research methodology 101. Your statement that "most of the best wines produced in Israel are kosher" is somewhat of a non-sequitor and that because the vast majority of wines (close to 96%) are produced by the country's large and medium-sized wineries and all of those are kosher. A fine example of how correlation and causation do not walk hand in hand.

As to wines Israeli wines costing $100 or more, those thankfully can still be counted on the fingers of two hands (with a few fingers left over). A very, very small niche indeed, and certainly not the direction any intelligent winemaker, stockholder or CEO is headed in order to make their wineries profitable.

As to winemakers being good CFO's (I had to google that to find Chief Financial Officer) - disagreed diametrically and that is one of the reasons that winemakers have very little to do with the "business end" of large and medium sized wineries but leave that in the hands of far more business-oriented people. As to winemakers at small wineries being good CFO's, I am skeptical and that is why so many of them take in partners who are more business-savvy than they.

At least one one thing we do fully agree - in that there is no contradiction between kashrut and the production of fine wine.

Best
Rogov

[DavidW]

Changing the subject just a little, is there actually anything trief (non-kosher) in non-certified Israeli wines? I note that none of them say that they are vegetarian, but then most New World wines don't say that either. Do any winemakers actually use sheep blood (or whatever) as a fining agent any more?

And does the antipathy of the owner of Clos de Gat to kosher certification explain why his wines are specifically labelled "not kosher"?

David

[Daniel Rogov]

David, Hi....

Not a soul in Israel would dream of using sheep's or other blood as a clarifying or fining agent. And that not because of kashrut but because its a rather primitive and not very effective method, pretty much "shot" from developed countries since the 18th century. Some might rely on isinglass as a fining agent (that unkosher only if the material is taken from the bladder of a sturgeon or other non-kosher fish) but even that is rarely used in the world, yet alone locally. As to other specifically treif(non-kosher ingredients), probably not used because they are simply not imported into the country.

As to actual differences - largely that non-Sabbath observant Jews come in contact with the wine and that there may not be a symbollic spilling off of the wine.

It may not go along with halacha but there are a great many modern Observant Jews who will not hesitate to buy wines from many of the smaller wineries that have no kashrut certificates. Their logic - made in Israel, from grapes grown on Israeli soil, and the wines made by Jews. Much the same as those people will dine in a restaurant that offers non-kosher foods but restrict themselves to fish or dairy dishes.

Might be hard to believe today but there was a period when the most popular source for then thought to be wines of acceptable quality in Israel were the Latroun and Cremesan Monastaries where many a kippa (skull cap) was to be seen on Sundays through Thursdays.

Best
Rogov

[Mike_F]

And does the antipathy of the owner of Clos de Gat to kosher certification explain why his wines are specifically labelled "not kosher"?

No, this is most likely a legal requirement enforced by the Israeli Wine Institute. All imported wine must be tested by the institute before an import license is issued, and hence all non-kosher imported wines must be marked "Not Kosher" in Hebrew. I suspect that the same goes for wine exports, so non-kosher wineries that want to export must also mark their wines explicitly as non-kosher (Flam wines are also marked in this way, that will sadly change, as noted above). Small boutiques that sell only within Israel can apparently bypass this requirement and stay under the radar, at least for the time being...

[Robbie Fowler]

Re kashrut: Israeli wines have the additional complication of Truma and maaser. So a non kosher Israeli wine has the potential to be a lot more non-kosher than a French wine. If truma (taking 1/50 for the cohen) today is a biblical requirement then drinking wine that has not had its truma taken results in spiritual death (karet). Eating pork, for example, does not incur spiritual death. (I see now that Rogov is referring to this in "spilling the wine" but I dont think this address the issue)

Most authorities hold that the biblical requirement only kicks in when most Jews live in Israel, so and punishments that would apply today would be on a rabinical level. Until most Jews live in Israel....I have spoken to one or two makers of non kosher wines, and they have told me that they do take truma and maaser, but they have issues on not touching the wine. Certain people who touch wine will make it not kosher, being a rabinical decree, and one of the 18 which even in Messicanic times will continue. There seems to be ways around this problem when dealing with non observant Jews touching wine. And I am surprised there is no lower level kashrut label offering to use these ways out.

[Daniel Rogov]

Ye gods. And if we want to be arcane I can report on a ruling in a Spanish winery in which it has been ruled that if a woman even sees the wine before it is bottled it becomes non-kosher. For that reason even the clear plastic tubes used to transfer wines between barrels or between tanks are covered with tape so that no one might accidentally see the wine en route.

Why can we simply not accept the fact that different folks among us perceive these issues in different ways and that no matter how one perceives them, no-one is going to be doomed or damned to everlasting flaming brimstone or its equivalent. And in that of course to respect each of the different ways so long as they not impede on the freedom or survival of others. More than that, that no point of view in these issues is more or less "superior" to any other.

I must say that at this stage of things I am very glad that when I taste kosher wines (and believe me, I taste more kosher wines annually than anyone else on this planet), I pay absolutely minimal attention to which particular authority grants the kashrut certificate, my choice being to leave that to individuals who may or may not choose to buy the wines.

I may or may not be doomed to whatever it is that people can be doomed to but that is most surely not because of my observance or lack thereof of the mitzvot (commandments) relating to wine.

Apologies if I sound a wee bit aggressive here. More frustration, I suspect, than true aggression.

Best
Rogov

[Barry K]

Rogov
You are too kind and gentle
For those of you who haven't gotten the message this is a wine forum. For a number of reasons including, the relevance and the concern that you will create confusion, this is not the place for Halachic discussions of permitted and non permitted and certainly avoid pontification about consequences


So if i may speak for Rogov let us please remember
Kosher is a legal and marketing term .. OK to discuss
leave teruma ,maser , isur vheter ,( please excuse the hebrew terms but needed to make my point) and the "onshin" issues to your local Rav who hopefully has the appropriate credentials to provide you and me with an intelligible answer to topics much too complex ( and of course off topic ) for this forum

Respectfully
Barrry

[Mike_F]

So a non kosher Israeli wine has the potential to be a lot more non-kosher than a French wine

What a mind-boggling concept! Now the only question that remains is how can we make sure to fulfill our potential...

Mike the epikoyres...

[Daniel Rogov]

My thanks to both Barry and Mike for saying what they did in the way that they said it.

For those not in the know - the term epikoyres, albeit rather a serious concept is a rather fun one in Judaism. Taken literally from the Greek it refers to a heretic. Taken a bit more liberally it refers to one who openly challenges various rabbinical authorities. The good news in all of this is that although not everyone may agree with him, no-one is going to put Mike to death by stoning.

Best
Rogov

[Michael Weiser]

Sunshine, you really need to brush up on your reading comprehension. What aspects of my previous post quoted below do I need to explain slowly with pictures?

Mike/Tootsie Roll/Pumpkin/Sweet Pea..

I was waiting for the slideshow but..

All I did was read the link to your previous post which says (I cant quote it as the thread is locked)

" The second aspect of the answer is my personal allergy, and those of many others, at our increasingly invasive and pervasive religious kashrut police. I don't want those people telling me what I can and cannot eat or drink. I do my best not to buy products marked as kosher by organizations such as badatz that support and maintain a large segment of our society that refuses to bear the load with the rest of us (by load I mean military or national service, productive employment, payment of taxes, etc). I prefer restaurants where I see the chef when I politely ask to visit the kitchen, and wineries where I can meet the winemaker when I ask to visit the barrels room. If either of these individuals are hidden behind a kashrut supervisor, I prefer to take my custom elsewhere."

Maybe my reading comprehension is lacking but im pretty sure this says you dont buy it because.. well you said it. Anyhow live and let live.

I must say that at this stage of things I am very glad that when I taste kosher wines (and believe me, I taste more kosher wines annually than anyone else on this planet), I pay absolutely minimal attention to which particular authority grants the kashrut certificate, my choice being to leave that to individuals who may or may not choose to buy the wines.

Best
Rogov

More importantly :
Daniel this post of yours gives me an idea maybe you should start paying attention to which kashrut Authority supervises which wine this will allow you to expand wine ratings to a whole different dimension..You could rate the wines as supervised by various Kashruth athorities ie the wines of Rabbanut the wines of Badatz etc... You could even do a whole rating system on which Kashrut Organization has more 90+ point wines the possibilities are endless

Regards,
Michael