Clos de Gat:My Second Visit of the Year (And Well Worth It)

[Daniel Rogov]

Of all things necessary to the sustaining of life in general and to the continuation of the "good life" in particular, fewer are more important to me than espresso coffee. On my way this morning to visit the Clos de Gat winery I arrived at the Beit Shemesh railroad station, there pleased to be greeted with a cup of take-away double-espresso. Alas, the coffee beans had been over-roasted and as surely as the day followeth the night, the person working the espresso machine lacked any ability whatever to make a decent cup of coffee. Later, to add insult to injury, at the winery I was given a cup of café botz* to drink. Not good omens, but I am more than willing to forgive owner-winemaker Eyal Rotem such minor sins because he does, after all, make some of the very best wines in the country.

Located on Kibbutz Har’el in the Jerusalem Mountains, this joint project of the kibbutz and Australian-trained winemaker Eyal Rotem released its first wines from the 2001 vintage. The name “Clos de Gat” is a play on words—the French clos is an enclosed vineyard surrounded by stone walls or windbreaks, while the Hebrew/Aramaic gatis an antique wine press. Grapes come from the winery’s own vineyards, which now include Cabernet, Merlot, Petit Verdot, Syrah and Chardonnay. Production is currently about 50,000 bottles annually. With new vineyards soon coming on line the winery is aiming for 100,000 bottles in the not-too-distant future. The winery releases wines in three series, Sycra (Aramaic for “bright red”), the Bordeaux-blend Clos de Gat, and Har’el.

Perhaps of piquant interest – in addition to receiving rave reviews here, in the UK, Clos de Gat seems to be the only winery exporting wines to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. And, at this writing, one of the fewer and fewer local boutique wineries that fully intends to remain without a kashrut certificate.

The immediate goal of today's tasting was to sample the soon to be released 2007 Sycra Syrah. But, as Jacqueline Susanne points out so nicely, "once is not enough" so we went on to taste each of the Syrah releases of the winery in both the Sycra and the Har'el series since 2003.

Vertical tastings like this are always valued as they give the opportunity to see precisely how wines are developing from year to year. They also give the critic the ability to check his own earlier tasting notes, to check on the consistency of the wines from year to year and, no less important, to show how accurate our predictions were for drinking windows. Of Clos de Gat I can say with no hesitation that consistency is just fine thank you, each of the wines comparing comfortably to the wines of other vintages and each carrying the distinctly elegant signature of the winemaker. My tasting notes follow.
My thanks to Eyal Rotem and his representative William White (to whom I invariably refer as "Sir William") for a fine tasting as well as a light lunch of salad and what may have been the best tchina that I have tasted in years, those taken on the outdoor terrace of the offices and tasting room of the winery.

Oh yes, in case any of my colleagues should ask, as to Rotem's policy of welcoming wine critics and criticism but not sending sample bottles of wine to any critic whomsoever (present company included), I approve whole-heartedly. As always I have said, it is the privilege of any winery to send or not send wines for sampling to whomever or non-ever as they choose. And another "oh yes" ...whatever you do be sure to read the final tasting note on this page.

Best
Rogov

The Sycra Wines

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Sycra, 2007: Super-dark garnet towards royal purple, full-bodied and reflecting its 20 months in French oak barriques with abundant but gently mouth-coating tannins and notes of cinnamon and vanilla on the palate. Deeply aromatic, opens to reveal generous raspberries and red currants on the first attack, those yielding comfortably to plums, notes of saddle leather and a hint of green tobacco on the remarkably long finish. Caressing and elegant. Approachable on release in September 2010) but best from mid-2011-2018. Score 94. (Tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Sycra, 2006: My most recent tasting note holds firmly. An opulent wine, almost impenetrably deep garnet in color, full-bodied, with silky-smooth tannins that caress gently and opening in the glass to reveal aromas and flavors of wild red and black berries, grilled meat and spices, those leading to a fruit-rich finish on which you will find tempting chocolate and vanilla undertones. Long, round and generous. If this one does not make you fall in love you’re a hard-hearted wine lover indeed. One of the best wines ever from Israel. Approachable and enjoyable now but best from 2012-2019, perhaps longer.. Score 95. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat Syrah, Sycra, 2004: Again, my most recent tasting note holds firmly. Oak-aged for 20 months. Full-bodied, with oak that at one moment seems spicy and at the next smoky but never dominating; with firm tannins integrating nicely now. A dense, almost muscular wine, but one that sits gently and opens to show a tempting array of cherry, berry and currant fruits, those on a just-spicy-enough background to highlight hints of freshly roasted coffee. Well focused, intense and long. Drink now–2014. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)


[/u]The Har'el Wines[/u]

n.b. My tasting notes for each of the Syrah wines in the Har'el series reflect their development over time and hold firmly, with twp exceptions, that being the occasional addition of one point to the score and that in nearly all cases I have extended the drinking window by 1, 2 or more years.

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Har'El, , 2008: Blended with 15% Cabernet Sauvignon and developed for 15 months in barriques, showing super-dark garnet towards royal purple. Full-bodied, with generous but softly caressing tannins making the wine more than approachable despite its youth. Opens to show blackcurrant and blueberry fruits, those parting to make way for blackberries and black cherries with gentle hints of black pepper and grilled meat rising on the remarkably long finish. Drink now-2017. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Har’el, 2007: Dark, almost impenetrable royal purple, full-bodied, with generous soft tannins integrating nicely. Blended with 15% of Cabernet Sauvignon and oak-aged for 16 months, a generously spicy wine opening to show wild berry, plum and black and red cherry fruits, those going on to reveal notes of sage, minerals and dark chocolate. Deep and complex, with a long finish on which tannins, red cherries and floral notes make themselves comfortably felt. Thoroughly enjoyable now but best 2012-2016. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Har'el, 2006: Dark garnet toward royal purple, blended with 15% of Cabernet Sauvignon and oak-aged for 15 months (about ¹∕3 new oak). Full-bodied, with soft, gently mouth-coating tannins and fine balance and structure. Opens slowly in the glass at this stage but when it does, it does so with gusto, showing plum, red berry and cassis fruits, those on a generous but well-proportioned spicy background. Long, round and elegant. Drink now–2013, perhaps longer. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Har’el, 2005: Blended with 7% Cabernet Sauvignon, this dark royal purple, deeply aromatic, mouth-filling and lush red shows medium to full-bodied, and boasts tannins that are soft but comfortably gripping. A generous array of plum, cherry and berry fruits, those backed up by juniper and white pepper. On the nose near-sweet black fruits and on the long finish hints of leather and citrus peel. Drink now–2012. Score 93. On the long finish hints of leather and citrus peel. Drink now–2014. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat, Syrah, Har'el, 2004: Dark, almost impenetrable garnet, this medium- to full-bodied blend of 85% Syrah and 15% Cabernet Sauvignon shows soft, round tannins and on the nose and palate a generous array of plum, blueberry and blackberry, those complemented by spices and appealing hints of fresh herbs and toffee. Drink now-2013. Score 93. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

Clos de Gat Syrah, Har'el, 2003: Remarkably youthful for its age, dark ruby towards garnet, this now softly tannic blend of 85% Syrah and 15% Cabernet Sauvignon shows generous peppery overtones. Medium- to full-bodied, with now soft and well integrated and complex plum, red berry and earthy aromas and flavors, all with a hint of leather on the finish. Drink now-2012. Score 92. (Re-tasted 1 Jun 2010)

And At The End

Towards the end of our tasting, Rotem asked if I might like to try his first attempt at a white dessert wine. Who and what, after all, would I be to deny such a tasting.

Clos de Gat, White Dessert Wine, 2006: A deep, youthful gold towards orange blend of 75% Muscat Alexandroni and 25% Viognier, those aged in well tempered barrels (those previously used for Chardonnay) and reinforced with grape alcohol to a 16% alcohol content. Generously sweet, but with fine balancing acidity, opens with notes of citrus peel, goes on to reveal honeyed peach and apricot notes and then, surprisingly, to tropical fruits, all coming together as a well structured and coherent whole. Long and generous. Fewer than 700 bottles were made, and those may never go on sale. If you are fortunate enough to obtain one, drink not with but as dessert. One of the very best dessert wines made in Israel and certainly the one destined for the longest cellaring ability. Drink now-2040, perhaps longer. Score 95. (Tasted 1 Jun 2010)

[Gary J]

Perhaps of piquant interest ... And, at this writing, one of the fewer and fewer local boutique wineries that fully intends to remain without a kashrut certificate.

Rogov...do you have information that your kosher consuming loyal readers would be interested in hearing???

Do spill the beans... at your leisure of course...

[Daniel Rogov]

Gary, Hi......

As soon as the official announcements are made. After all, I would hate to Flame anyone*. Whatever, do believe when I say that neither Margalit nor Clos de Gat will be making that move.

Best
Rogov

*And believe me, that is far from offical at this stage and more a speculation on my part.

[Gary J]

Fair enough.

Though I bet several of the forum participants are awaiting this announcement with bated breath...

Best!

[Andrew Breskin]

Has the title of Best Syrah in Israel been removed from the 2004 Yarden Ortal Syrah?

[Mike_F]

... After all, I would hate to Flame anyone*...

Well an e-mail to Flam this morning elicited a response that they are examining all kinds of options, but at this stage nothing is changing yet.

Speaking strictly for myself, 'twill be a sad day if Flam goes completely kosher. Supervising the production of kosher cuvees at another site as done previously by Saslove and others might be a way to grow without alienating a significant fraction of the current customer base. Alas, this being the Middle East, I somehow doubt that reasonable solutions will prevail.

[Daniel Rogov]

Mike, Hi.....

Not specifically with regard to Flam or any other winery, but why should going kosher serve to alienate "a significant fraction of the current customer base"?

Indeed, in many cases, the move to kashrut is an entirely business-oriented decision, that largely motivated by the realities that as much as there is a larger number of wine enthusiasts in Israel, per capita consumption remains low. More than that, we have reached a position where there are an increasing number of vineyards within Israel and that means too many grapes for local consumption. Good planning on the part of small to medium sized wineries must include export and, to my personal sorrow, it seems that at least for now the consumption of Israeli wines abroad is limited largely to Jews. And many of those potential buyers want wine that is kosher.

I think it has been fairly well established that there need be no contradiction between wines that are kosher and wines that are excellent, so such a move would not necessarily impact on the quality of the wines being produced. Nor, if growth in both vineyards and the winery is well planned, should that result in more than a nominal (if any) increase in price.

Speaking entirely of wineries producing truly fine wines, I sometimes wonder if those who suffer most from the transition to kosher are not the consumers but the winemakers who by this move lose not their ability to produce fine wines but their ability to feel on an intimate level with their wines.

As to supervising the making of kosher wines at a separate and separately owned facility, despite the proclamations of winemakers doing this, it ain't quite the same for then the winemaking process indeed takes on what I consider a "long-distance" relationship between winemaker and the wine. Despite the old saw, distance does not always make the heart grow fonder.

Mmm...there was a question here and if that has been lost on the way, see the first sentence of this post.

Best
Rogov

[Mike_F]

Not specifically with regard to Flam or any other winery, but why should going kosher serve to alienate "a significant fraction of the current customer base"?

The main answer to your question is in your own very same post, specifically-

Speaking entirely of wineries producing truly fine wines, I sometimes wonder if those who suffer most from the transition to kosher are not the consumers but the winemakers who by this move lose not their ability to produce fine wines but their ability to feel on an intimate level with their wines.

When I buy a case of wine at a local boutique winery, very often it is at the winery itself, and after some discussion with the winemaker about what's currently in barrels, what he/she thought of the vintage in the bottle being tasted, etc etc. And when I open that bottle I usually have a memory of that conversation, and some connection with what I am drinking. Thinking of Ze'ev Dunie dashing between barrels with his pipette drawing samples, or Golan Flam politely answering asinine questions from the public cramming into his fermentation room during an open house - those are all part of the experience. 'Tis part of the romance of the wine world, and 'tis important to me as a consumer. Wines from such boutique wineries are also the vast majority of the wines that I purchase.

The second aspect of the answer is my personal allergy, and those of many others, at our increasingly invasive and pervasive religious kashrut police. I don't want those people telling me what I can and cannot eat or drink. I do my best not to buy products marked as kosher by organizations such as badatz that support and maintain a large segment of our society that refuses to bear the load with the rest of us (by load I mean military or national service, productive employment, payment of taxes, etc). I prefer restaurants where I see the chef when I politely ask to visit the kitchen, and wineries where I can meet the winemaker when I ask to visit the barrels room. If either of these individuals are hidden behind a kashrut supervisor, I prefer to take my custom elsewhere.

very sincerely,

Mike

[Isi M]

The second aspect of the answer is my personal allergy, and those of many others, at our increasingly invasive and pervasive religious kashrut police. I don't want those people telling me what I can and cannot eat or drink.

Since a few minutes looking at your post but I try not to answer in order to avoid a kashrut debate but I can't hold off a reaction to part of your comment :

- I was never arested by the kashrut "police"
- they never contacted me in any way to tell me what to eat or not
- no one interfered during any of my meals regarding what i was eating or drinking

..... unless I voluntarily invited to do so

Please disregard my comments in the case you were referring to another country than Israel (maybe Iran or Sudan ?)

[Daniel Rogov]

Mike, Hi…

Your thoughtful two-part response is much appreciated.

When I buy a case of wine at a local boutique winery, very often it is at the winery itself, and after some discussion with the winemaker about what's currently in barrels, what he/she thought of the vintage in the bottle being tasted, etc etc. And when I open that bottle I usually have a memory of that conversation, and some connection with what I am drinking. Thinking of Ze'ev Dunie dashing between barrels with his pipette drawing samples, or Golan Flam politely answering asinine questions from the public cramming into his fermentation room during an open house - those are all part of the experience. 'Tis part of the romance of the wine world, and 'tis important to me as a consumer. Wines from such boutique wineries are also the vast majority of the wines that I purchase.

We are in full agreement that such activities, discussions and romance are much a part of why we so adore wine. Very little of that need change when a winery turns to kashrut, for people like Golan Flam and Ze'ev Dunie will always take pride in their wines and will continue to take pleasure in meeting and talking with those of us who appreciate their efforts. And yes, they will continue to be polite when it comes to the asinine questions.

Jumping to a latter part of your note, you say:

I prefer restaurants where I see the chef when I politely ask to visit the kitchen, and wineries where I can meet the winemaker when I ask to visit the barrels room. If either of these individuals are hidden behind a kashrut supervisor, I prefer to take my custom elsewhere.

One of the few noticeable differences between visiting a kosher and a non-kosher winery (and I agree that this is a difference) will come about when we follow the winemaker into their barrel rooms, for I once there we will not be allowed to physically touch the barrels and the pipette will be used by a mashgiach (kashrut supervisor) and not the winemaker. Even that, however, will not stop the winemakers or us from sampling what is in those barrels, from spitting wines onto the floors, into the narrow gutters that run the length of the room, or into plastic pails and from discussing our reactions with the winemaker.

Important perhaps for many of us to realize that although the mashgachim are there to protect the laws of kashrut, many of them at both large and small wineries are genuinely decent people and often quite pleasant people who take pride in their work and work comfortably hand-in-hand with the winemakers. True, there are some who are mumzerim (not at all literally s.o.b.'s but that will do for translation at the moment) who are difficult to work with and make life hard for everyone. Those, however, are in an increasing minority, many of these men being thoroughly orthodox but enthusiastic about their work and their contribution to the winery. Not a few of the more modern masgichim actually perceive the work as part of an important and romantic profession and an increasing number of them are enrolling in college level wine courses.

More important from the point of view of wine lovers, when visiting at an increasing number of kosher wineries I find myself warmly greeting and greeted by the[i[ mashgichim[/i] on my arrival and not that rarely during a few quiet moments even sharing a coffee, a cigarette and a bit of wine talk with them.


In part of the second of your paragraphs you say:

The second aspect of the answer is my personal allergy, and those of many others, at our increasingly invasive and pervasive religious kashrut police. I don't want those people telling me what I can and cannot eat or drink. I do my best not to buy products marked as kosher by organizations such as badatz that support and maintain a large segment of our society that refuses to bear the load with the rest of us (by load I mean military or national service, productive employment, payment of taxes, etc

Although my own views on the issues you raise are fairly well known, I will not go into those here. I will, however say that your views are valued and with those I shall not take issue. As we have discussed on several earlier occasions on the forum, in my role as critic I will taste and give fair evaluation to nearly all wines no matter what I personally think of the winemaker, their behavior or morality, and shall we say "the geo-political location" of the winery. It goes without saying though that there are wines that I will not purchase for my personal drinking precisely because of those factors. In a phrase, "I know from where you are coming", but even that cannot stop me from enjoying visiting, tasting, schmoozing and even gossiping at wineries and that regardless of whether they happen to be kosher or not.

Very Best and Despite My Being a Curmudgeon, Still Ye Faithful Optimist
Rogov

[Daniel Rogov]

- I was never arested by the kashrut "police"
- they never contacted me in any way to tell me what to eat or not
- no one interfered during any of my meals regarding what I was eating or drinking

I suppose I knew that one day these issues would raise their heads and demand to be spoken. Because the issues are valid ones and do relate to what we eat and drink, they have their place here. I will therefore respond to Isi.

Others may also want to respond. I request that all who desire to post on these issues maintain decorum in their demeanor and their talk and avoid any personal attacks. All thought out and even passionate arguments will be respected. What will not be respected and will probably wind up either being strenuously edited or deleted will be attacks of any kind. As we all know, it is possible to disagree on a friendly basis and it is precisely that kind of friendship and mutual respect for which I call.

Isi, you say that you were never arrested by the kashrut "police". Nor have I. Nor has anyone that I know. Although this is merely an expression it does indeed express its sentiments. Two small examples may help.

(a) I am fully certain that we all agree that opening a store featuring pork products in a religious neighborhood or even bordering on such a neighborhood would be a stupid, offensive and provocative act. I have, however, seen stores that offer pork products in thoroughly non-religious neighborhoods being picketed, the owners of those stores and their families spit upon and in several cases even having their store windows broken. Related to this, Eli Laudau (who together with chef Chaim Cohen writes a column for HaAretz) has just published a cookbook dealing entirely with the preparation of pork. At least one of the Orthodox movements has already threatened one of the major book chains, saying that if they put this book on their shelves they and their entire community will boycott their book stores. If that is not a kind of "policing", I do not know what might be so considered.

(b) The very fact that it is a criminal offense to raise pigs on state-owned land in Israel is rather a serious affair. Of course the way around this has been (i) to declare all pig farms as research stations and (ii) to have pig pens set not on the physical ground but on wood flooring. All rather silly but it satisfies "the law"

You also say that you have never been "contacted in any way to tell me what to eat or not". I have had many such contacts, some personal, some more global.

(a) I cannot purchase any foods or beverages on holidays such as Tisha bey'Av as all stores, kiosks and restaurants in the country must be closed on the eve of that holiday. It should be noted that this is a holy day that has meaning primarily to the Orthodox community and not to Conservative, Reform or other Jews in Israel.

(b) With only one exception, all of the foods in supermarkets must be kosher or the supermarket looses its license. I am not suggesting that the Orthodox eat bacon or other foods they consider treif but there is something pathetic about a kashrut supervisors who insist that supermarkets can carry milk and dairy products simultaneously while not allowing the importation of a non-kosher peanut butter. Or, for that matter, the prohibition against having a separate section no matter how large or how small carrying non-kosher products in general.

(c) As to being told what not to eat, try bringing a ham and cheese sandwich into an Israeli hotel or onto an Israeli army base. In the case of hotels, giving such permission would be tantamount to losing their kashrut certificate even if the guest who brings in that sandwich is a Roman Catholic Archbishop. In the case of the army, that behaviour is quite adequate to earn one a court martial.

Finally, you say that no one has "interfered during any of my meals regarding what I was eating or drinking". Again, just a few examples of how that operates....

(a) On an army base on one occasion I went into the mess-hall after a particularly harrowing night and took a loaf of bread, a tin of loof (the kosher equivalent of Spam), a packet of yellow cheese and a few containers of mustard. Recognizing and respecting that the kitchens and dining rooms of the army must maintain kashrut, I took my ingredients out of doors and there prepared several sandwiches of loof, cheese and mustard. One of the Orthodox soldiers on the base walked by, saw me, spit on me and told me in no uncertain terms that "I was not only not a Jew but worse than the goyim". We both had the same rank which was fortunate for him for had he been either senior or junior to me I would have called for a court martial.

(b) On one evening, some twenty years ago, in the very expensive and formal dining room of Jerusalem's King David Hotel (indeed in my opinion one of the best hotels in the world) diners were at their tables eating when one of the mashgichim was strolling through the dining room and noticed that one of the fillet steaks au poivre had been prepared with green peppercorns. The mashgiach flew into a rage, pulled the plates from the table and, in the midst of all present smashed the plates on the floor literally ranting at the top of his lungs as to how all there (including myself) were damned and double-damned. Indeed from that day on Madagascar green peppercorns are no longer offered at kosher restaurants because of the 16th century myth that in the heart of these peppercorns there might be the miniscule larvae of an equally miniscule worm. According to that myth in addition to being non-kosher these tiny little worms work their way through the blood, entering the brain and making us insane. Green peppercorns are permissible in hotel kitchens. Just so long as those are not from Madagascar.

(c) On several occasions world renowned chefs have been invited to prepare meals for special events within Israel, those meals kosher largely because they were either in hotels or in state-owned or funded institutions and/or because the paying guests wanted their meals to be kosher. All of which is fair enough. Among those, for example, was the meal celebrating the 3000th anniversary of the founding of Jerusalem. Quite often those chefs, few of whom are Jewish, are not familiar with the laws of kashrut and are thus paired with local chefs to guide them and prevent mishaps. Despite all of the precautions taken and despite the laws of common courtesy, I have seen great chefs (e.g. Robuchon, Troigros, Marchesi) insulted either to their faces or behind their backs by various of the kashrut supervisors. Indeed the epitome of ridiculousness in this area came when Gultiero Marchesi was preparing his world-famed risotto, a dish topped by edible gold leaf. The mashgichim debated for hours over the use of the gold leaf but finally decided that it was indeed parve and no problem. The gold leaf could not be used, however, for the tissue thin leafs of gold had been separated by a brushing of vegetable oil and no one could provide a kashrut certificate for that oil.

(d) Too long to re-tell here but when anyone meets me ask about the kashrut adventure encountered by chef Jean-Louis Palladin while he was preparing goose liver at the Tel Aviv Sheraton Hotel. Or about the time a group of Israeli chefs were visiting and preparing a meal at one of the luxury Tel Aviv hotels and I, in all innocence, took them to a restaurant that specialized in game meat including wild boar. Because one of the employees of the hotel had rented the van that took us to our destination and then accompanied our group, the hotel was in severe danger of losing its kashrut certificate.


Indeed the orthodox and the non-orthodox and even the non-believer can live in comfort and side-by-side. That there are issues to be ironed out is undeniable. It is also possible that some of those issues will have no solution. Even that is acceptable but only on the condition that each side is willing to respect the needs and rights of the others and that each is willing at least to make moves in accepting and respecting the other.

I have no choice but to say that in Israel as in many other countries, there are some with whom dialogue is impossible. I see no coming together, for example of the Ultra-Orthodox "Haridim" and other major segments of the population. Nor do I see any way to open a dialogue with them on issues such as these. Here too, however, the answer too is quite simple – for those of us from the most orthodox to those who take a middle-road, to the non-observant and even to the non-believers to realize that every society has its fanatics and simply to realize that as we are outside of their world-view, so are they beyond ours. With fanatics of any kind there can be no dialogue. What must be avoided however is enmity and warring.

Wow…did I say all of that?

Best
Rogov

[Mike_F]

- I was never arested by the kashrut "police"
- they never contacted me in any way to tell me what to eat or not
Please disregard my comments in the case you were referring to another country than Israel (maybe Iran or Sudan ?)

Sunshine - you are living in denial. No need to look far for examples. Just try to discuss purchasing a few cases of Flam Superiore for a wedding or bar mitzva that you are trying to organize at a public venue. Let's see how far you get...

Iran ... Israel - in certain parts of our country there is practically no difference. But don't take my word for it. Here are a few links to explore -

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... n-1.272162

http://www.theworld.org/2010/04/21/segr ... in-israel/

Specifically regarding kosher food coercion-

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... s-1.255267

So yes, we have various types of kashrut police. Claiming this does not exist here is hypocrisy.

Mike

[Andrew Breskin]

Is this the end of the Wine Forum as we know it? Anger Forum? Sarcasm forum?

[Daniel Rogov]

Is this the end of the Wine Forum as we know it? Anger Forum? Sarcasm forum?

No Andrew it is not the end of anything. At least I most certainly hope it is not.

As I said in my own first post, I knew that these issues would come to the fore one day and it seems that day has come. As I also said, if we post (as both Mike and Isi have) with their opinions stated openly and tossed open for debate, that can do no harm whatever. If it serves to bring out some differences, that will be fine so long as it also leads to a potentially better understanding between individuals.

No fear, should this get out of hand, ye faithful curmudgeon will lock the thread with a diplomatic touch. I think and hope that each of us, not matter what his or her convictions will have the courage of those convictions and feel no need to be either defensive or aggressive. Funny...I guess I trust us.

Best
Rogov

[Mike_F]

Is this the end of the Wine Forum as we know it? Anger Forum? Sarcasm forum?

Alas, no sarcasm. But if you can't take the heat of a free debate, please feel free to leave the kitchen. Before you go, take a look at the links I posted. If they don't make you angry, regardless of your personal choices re' kashrut, there is really no basis for a dialogue.

[Andrew Breskin]

Poor choice of tone can ruin even the most useful discussion.

[Mike_F]

Poor choice of tone can ruin even the most useful discussion.

Yes indeed, but much easier to maintain a nuanced tone from the distant perspective of San Diego... . Try living here for a few months, and let's see your choice of tone then........

[Daniel Rogov]

Ye referee says - let's stay with the issues and away from challenges. This could be fruitful thread but only if we play by the rules.

Best
Rogov

[Isi M]

I did not imagine one second that this post would prompt such emotions ....

Daniel,

Regarding the incidents with the pork shops: please let us not mix isolated stupid incidents with every day life : stupid people have always existed in every country and will continue to exist.
Regarding the pork farms : wheter you like or dislike it, it's the law. Many laws are stupid and make no sense. If we want to change them, we should elect the right people.

Regarding purchases on hollidays : they are very few hollidays were EVERYTHING is closed, most mini supermarket chains like AM/PM are open all the year round except a few days.
I wouldn't consider those few days in the year as obstructive to my life. Again, every country has some hollidays, whether religious or not, whether stupid or not, but I don't see why Israel should be an exception.

Regarding kosher supermarkets : you are free to shop in non kosher supermarkets : Tiv Tam or Stop Market to name the ones I know

Regarding ham and cheese in hotel and army bases : hotels are free to decide wheter they are kosher or not and they have to make sure their policy are respected. I am free to choose to go there or not. For example the Scottish Hotel in Tveria decided not to be under kosher supervision and you can enjoy there bacon with your eggs during breakfast.
Army : we are complaining that some religious people don't serve in the army, let's not chase the ones who decide to serve !

Regarding your 4 examples : let's tolerate some percentage of problems or situations. No matter what the subject is, you will always have extreme / extremist people and situations (in any given situation) with deplorable incidents.


Mike !

Please !!! Please !!!
What is a bus segregation article doing here ??? !!!

Come and visit Belgium and explore the Flemish and Walloons .... and then we will speak about real segregation .
When a non flemish speaking Belgium citizen CANNOT go and live in Flemish-only auto dictated citiy....
Where they can not rent nor buy an apartment...
I am speaking of cities surrounding Brussels, the capital of Europe, the heart of all european institutions.
I could list here a lot of examples.
And not only from Belgium, from many other major european countries.

So stupidity, segregation DOES EXIST in the modern civilisation of today.
I know we want to be more than perfect in Israel, but we are ... what we are.

With all respect to your Haaretz sources ... we know their position and bias so I will not comment on those.


Andrew,

Don't leave the kitchen, no reason to segregate you.
And I promess you, it's not so hard to live here .... I may even think that it could be easier than in San Diego !

[Daniel Rogov]

Isi, Mike and Andrew...

Methinks we have each posted our views rather clearly and that no matter how well we manage to express ourselves, a face-to-face discussion would be far more productive as it allows for a more personal sense of exchange. Not to mention of course the breaking of bread together. (and perhaps the cutting of lamb chops at the same time). Should anyone care to carry this discussion further I would not be at all opposed to a meeting at Lilith in Tel Aviv. Up to you guys.

Methinks as well that as we continue to respond one to the other we will reach that well known point of ad absurdium and that tempers may flare a bit. Thus, with the points of view well pronounced, I am taking the liberty of locking this thread in the name of shlom bayt (peace in the house).

Best
Rogov