Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Ian Sutton » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:20 pm

I'm just hoping for good wine and less fashion chasing.

However to join in the spirit, I think there'll be more international experimentation with varieties indigenous to Italy and Greece (and elsewhere). I suspect most will be taken to market with overcropped grapes from young vines and people will wonder what the fuss was all about. I hope however that someone else strikes lucky and we get world class nebbiolo from another region or two.

Which grape/region will rule. I think the classics will still "rule" in 2010, though white burgundy may be off most peoples purchasing radar due to the premature oxidation issues seen since mid 90's.

Just my guesses

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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Peter May » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:35 pm

I think we'll see Italian varieties and Italian style blends from the new world becoming much more common.

Some are already appearing - I had a good Aussie Sangiovese yesterday, and Fairview in South Africa is producing some varietals and the Agostinelli blend.

They're varieties suited to hot climates, there are few places without Italian restaurants, and Italian type food (e.g pasta/pizza) are common eating at home thus a matching wine should have a ready audience
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby wrcstl » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:28 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:

Which grape/region will rule. I think the classics will still "rule" in 2010, though white burgundy may be off most peoples purchasing radar due to the premature oxidation issues seen since mid 90's.


Ian


Ian,
Come on, I have witnessed some oxidation in '96 white Burgs but certainly not with all producers. Isn't this just a '96 issue or are you saying it is with other vintages.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Carl Eppig » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:37 pm

We tend to prognosticate based on good deals we are getting today and wouldn't be surprised if they were gone tomorrow. There we will go to opposite ends of Italy and nominate Cortese and Nero d'Avola.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Ian Sutton » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:31 pm

wrcstl wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote:

Which grape/region will rule. I think the classics will still "rule" in 2010, though white burgundy may be off most peoples purchasing radar due to the premature oxidation issues seen since mid 90's.


Ian


Ian,
Come on, I have witnessed some oxidation in '96 white Burgs but certainly not with all producers. Isn't this just a '96 issue or are you saying it is with other vintages.
Walt

Walt
I'm afraid it's much wider than that from the reports filtering out. It seems 95 was the start, but relatively sporadic, 96 more noticeable and all the subsequent years of the 90's affected - with no cause as yet identified and hence no defintive end to the problem. It is, however as yiu mentioned, not across the board, with some producers hardly affected and others more so. Possibly a few false positives (e.g. "normal" :roll: cork failure), but there's seemingly something much more significant at play. Various theories abound about the cause, but at this stage I understand that's all they are. Sorry to bear bad news and I hope you strike it lucky.

Some links to threads discussed by others more affected than I am:

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=008029

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=007290

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimateb ... 788#000000

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=006426

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=006300

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=004206

http://www.wine-pages.com/cgi-bin2/ulti ... 1;t=001993

Apologies to Robin for inserting so many links to a UK forum - if this is a problem, let me know.

regards

Ian
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby James Roscoe » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:04 pm

Maybe it's your weather over there? Or perhaps it's the socialistic government? On the serious side, since you only seem to site problems in the UK, are there similar problems in cases distributed to other parts of the world?
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby wrcstl » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:22 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Maybe it's your weather over there? Or perhaps it's the socialistic government? On the serious side, since you only seem to site problems in the UK, are there similar problems in cases distributed to other parts of the world?


James,
I certainly believe Ian but I have only heard of this problem, and witnesssed it with the '96 vintage. If it is as bad as they say in the UK forum that should spell the end of white Burgs. My guess is that many think it is happening and therefore it is happening and is feeding on itself. No doubt you can get bad bottles and bad corks but still haven't seen anything like the UK is reporting.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Bob Ross » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:47 pm

Walt, Jancis Robinson just posted a note today on the 1996s on Purple Pages:

However there has been quite a bit of discussion here about the disappointing 1996 Burgundy vintage (see below) which looked so much better in its youth than now. There was always a marked streak of acidity, in both whites ands reds actually, but now in the majority of cases it seems to dominate the fruit. There are many theories about why this has happened with the then-current fashion for reducing sulphur levels being one of the more prominent.

Unfortunately it is difficult to see how these wines are going to come back into balance with time. With the 1988s for example, it was tannin which dominated the fruit for years and years but at least tannins levels fall with time, unlike acidities. It souinds as though you, like me, have quite a bit of 1996 red burgundy in your cellar. You might think of trying a few of the lighter examples deliberately chilled in this hot weather as a cooling drink, and perhaps had better abandon the idea of their ever being rich and rouind. I'm generally opening my Côte de Beaune wines and hanging on to my Côte de Nuits bottles with fingers tightly crossed.

Red burgundy is the most capricious wine in the world so it would not surprise me if those 1996s suddenly took a 90 degree turn and started to take on flesh.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Ian Sutton » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:05 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Maybe it's your weather over there? Or perhaps it's the socialistic government? On the serious side, since you only seem to site problems in the UK, are there similar problems in cases distributed to other parts of the world?

James
Socialist?!! :shock: :shock: It may be the Labour party, but they aren't socialists anymore (I think the socialists are locked up in cupboard somewhere and I think they're still arguing :) ). The Liberals are probably the party of the left wing these days, though I think this confuses them awfully. Labour made a successful move to match the conservatives policies a few years back and have had a successful time at the polls as a result. However they appear to have acquired some of the less impressive attributes power brings and the conservatives have learnt that to get power they ought to stop squabbling for 5 minutes - they'll probably edge a hung parliament at the next election at this rate. The Liberals meanwhile had the most farcical leadership campaign I can recall and have truly missed an open goal.

We might take occasional pot-shots at US politics, but the phrase involving kettles and pots of a dark hue should be wheeled out the next time I do it!

Back to the POx (Premature oxidation) as Toby Bailey (http://www.finewinediary.com) calls it.

This is the only US based board I frequent and I think there's historically a good volume of white burg bought in UK. I've not heard of other discussions apart from (I think I recall) a heated argument on a certain US board. Worth a browse of that board to check (just duck if someone mentions timing of mailshots & emails :twisted: ). Worth also checking Burghound and Clive Coates if you have access to their sites (I don't).

Whilst it does appear to be a problem of some significance, it doesn't need to be the end of white burgundy (and I don't see that it will be). However it would be very adviseable to get to the root of the problem quickly and openly. Being open about ones problems isn't easy though.

regards

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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby wrcstl » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:10 pm

Bob,
Is she now saying the problem is with reds as well as whites? This is beginning to sound like "chicken little". If in doubt everyone should send me their red and white Burgs.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Ian Sutton » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:16 pm

wrcstl wrote:Bob,
Is she now saying the problem is with reds as well as whites? This is beginning to sound like "chicken little". If in doubt everyone should send me their red and white Burgs.
Walt

It seems to me she's talking about general development in 96's as against the POx issue. Or perhaps a combination of both.

Bob
Does the full article make this clear?
regards
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Hoke » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 pm

My crystal ball is cloudy these days (well, always, really, since I seldom ever clean it properly)...but if I had to prognosticate I'd say......

Italy. Big push on Sicily now, but I'd be more careful and say Southern Italy, simply because there's so much volume capacity there, and some "new" discoveries for folks to enjoy, with enough latitude from cheap to high quality/style.

Spain: That place is just now reaping the benefits of a lot of congruences, and I think the biggest upswell has yet to come. Lots of promise there. Lots. Hope Spain doesn't use up all the excess oak barrels that CA is not using anymore, but even with that unfortunate trend, there's a vast amount of very good, very exciting wine just beginning to come out of Spain yet.

Ain't gonna be Alsace. Gone down that optimistic path way too many times. Alsace is what Alsace is, and I've given up hope of it being "the next big thing". And, frankly, don't want it to be. Just screw up a pretty good thing.

Them's my guesses.

(Of course, you realize everyone will be surprised when the next big thing actually happens. Like anyone predicted Pinot Grigio, right?)
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Bob Ross » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:26 pm

No, that's the full article, Ian. I'll check the index and see if there is more in other threads, and revert.
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Bob Ross » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:44 pm

Ian, here's a 2005 article/discussion:

M English, Herts, England:

Might it be an idea to have a "your tasting notes turn"? I'm disappointed more often than not by 1996 white burgundy and 1996 red burgundy can still be a bit of an enigma. They are made in such relatively small quantities it is difficult to get any update on how they might be maturing.

me:

I really, really hate to sound a killjoy (as with 1998 Rhones) but I think that most professionals would admit that 1996 burgundies of both colours have been disappointing. I could pretend that I alone predicted correctly (especially as I did not have this website then) but I was one of the great majority who thought they were very exciting when young, and found their relatively high acidity refreshing rather than excessive but, alas, in too many wines of both colours, the acidity seems to have won an in-bottle battle with the fruit and we are left with awfully lean, skinny wines. I too have many a disappointing 1996 in my cellar.

While I'm delighted to have a change of subject matter from all this bordeaux 2004 stuff, I wish it were with brighter news. It does seem to me that you have to go very high indeed in the Burgundy hierarchy, white grands crus specifically, before finding confirmation of the promise these wines seemed to offer in 1998.

David Schildknecht, US:

I would just add to the issues of balance you raised, the host of questions
and discussions that have surrounded the high incidence of apparently
prematurely oxidized 1996 white burgundies. A few of the principal theories or hunches I have read adduced to explain this phenomenon - and betweenwhich I do not myself pretend to the requisite expertise to decide -include:

- This is a phase, and the wines of 1996 are more apt than others to run
through manic-depressive cycles of oxidation and reduction in bottle. (I
certainly have seen a few 1996 - and 1995 - white burgundies stage flavour recoveries after seeming to be down for the proverbial count.)

- Given the high acidity and low pHs and a widespread, relatively newfound concern over toxicity, growers seriously under-estimated the levels of sulfur needed to sustain the freshness of fruit that contributed to the appeal of the youthful 1996s. (I have read numerous mea culpas from
responsible growers testifying to this explanation.)

- Widespread transition to peroxide (rather than chlorine) washes for
cleaning corks had the unexpected effect of promoting premature oxidation. (I have read some particularly heated discussions as to the scientific soundness of this particular hypothesis.)

- A background level of botrytis even in the dry and ostensibly clean wines has come back to haunt them, generating an unholy synergy with the tart acids and reinforcing flavors of oxidation.

The Rhine basin Rieslings from this vintage are also a bit cranky right now, and I hope to assemble a decent set of notes soon to more adequately assess a vintage which here too seemed to hold exceptional promise with its unique combination of turbo-charged acids with high ripeness.

Finally, I would be remiss not to mention that suspicions have also been
raised about the pre-mature maturation of Loire Sauvignons and Chenins of 1996, a vintage that certainly exhibited a rather well-defined, not to
mention distinctive trans-regional, vintage character [ie very crisp acidity].

Hopefully readers will be able to chime in with anecdotes and hunches.


A reader suggested this article, which Jancis said had good info:

http://www.slate.com/id/2121743

Regards, Bob
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby Ian Sutton » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:02 pm

Thanks Bob
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby TimMc » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:15 pm

Randy R wrote:What region and what grape variety will "rule" in 2010?


California's Central Coast.


Call it a hunch :)
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Re: Summer fun? Bring out your crystal balls

Postby wrcstl » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:38 am

TimMc wrote:
Randy R wrote:What region and what grape variety will "rule" in 2010?


California's Central Coast.


Call it a hunch :)


And pigs will fly :twisted:
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