Victorwine wrote:The only time a “flaw” will give me a problem is if the wine is now “taken out” of its “class” or “type”. A 1999 white, with color to it, if that’s the only thing “wrong” with it, I wouldn’t even consider that a “flaw”.
Salute
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Steve Slatcher
Wine guru
1047
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
Manchester, England
Victorwine wrote:The only time a “flaw” will give me a problem is if the wine is now “taken out” of its “class” or “type”. A 1999 white, with color to it, if that’s the only thing “wrong” with it, I wouldn’t even consider that a “flaw”.
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Steve Slatcher wrote:..... Sometimes we need to set expectations aside.
Mark Lipton wrote:I think one of the most important factors in specifying faults in a wine is being able to make a comparison, ideally with a non-faulty bottle of the same wine.
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Nathan Smyth wrote:Mark Lipton wrote:I think one of the most important factors in specifying faults in a wine is being able to make a comparison, ideally with a non-faulty bottle of the same wine.
In the case of imported wines, it is most instructive to taste the same wine as it was shipped by two different importers.
After which one will never again doubt the existence of the phenomenon of "cooked in transport".
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Oliver McCrum wrote:
The other aspect of low SO2 is that it would cause bottle variation that is indistinguishable from the 'cooked/non-cooked' theory.
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Dale Williams
Compassionate Connoisseur
11173
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)
TomHill wrote: There is no evidence for these threshold chemical reactions that I'm aware. Don't know chemistry very well, though.... I'm just a simple lil' ole country computational physicist. But let's discount them for now and go with the rule that chemical reactions double for each 10C rise in temperature. So if you wine spends 6 hrs...wherevere...at 90F. It would....given that the cork seal remains intact...therefore make sense to store the wine at 30F for a day or two and everything would even out and the wine would be the same as one that stayed at 60F its entire life??
Steve Slatcher wrote: It seems that oxidised styles are becoming less and less fashionable, .
Oliver McCrum wrote:I suppose one aspect of this is that wines that sound oxidative (any caramel note, flatness, darker color) are often being reflexively assumed to be cooked, these days. I am not clear how one would discriminate between cork failure (or stopper failure; many of the silicon stoppers failed after little more than a year), which IMO is common and not sufficiently discussed, insufficient protective SO2, and heat damage. .
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Dale Williams wrote:Oliver McCrum wrote:I suppose one aspect of this is that wines that sound oxidative (any caramel note, flatness, darker color) are often being reflexively assumed to be cooked, these days. I am not clear how one would discriminate between cork failure (or stopper failure; many of the silicon stoppers failed after little more than a year), which IMO is common and not sufficiently discussed, insufficient protective SO2, and heat damage. .
Oliver,
I'm all for getting away from natural cork. But let's not forget that heat can (as I understand it) exacerbate issues about corks and SO2. Pressure changes can make corks move. Even if it's not visually apparent as a sunken or raised cork, it seems logical to me that a cork that has moved is less likely to have kept a good seal. My understanding of the "sans soufre" producers is that pretty much everyone agrees that even fairly short term exposure to warm temps are a recipe for disaster.
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Oliver McCrum wrote:David,
No, I'm pointing out that the actual situation we face contains these variables, whether we like it or not.
'If the wine is ruined the wine is ruined...' is circular; yes, but why?
David M. Bueker wrote:No one is going to do a scientific study to prove why any specific bottle of wine goes bad. It's impossible until somebody invents the "Super-Affordable Magic Flaw Detector."
Thomas wrote:Oliver and Mark,
What about caramelized? That's a clear indication of cooking, and that's the one I look for in my sensory analysis. If it ain't there, I start looking for another reason.
Oxidation aroma is separate from caramelized; a sensory stimulation more like the smell of decay or death or infection rather than reduction, to which I equate caramelizing.
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
David M. Bueker wrote:Oliver McCrum wrote:David,
No, I'm pointing out that the actual situation we face contains these variables, whether we like it or not.
'If the wine is ruined the wine is ruined...' is circular; yes, but why?
Who cares. Obviously you do, but I just return the stuff (reasonably new purchases only). If it's shot it's shot.
No one is going to do a scientific study to prove why any specific bottle of wine goes bad. It's impossible until somebody invents the "Super-Affordable Magic Flaw Detector."
Oliver McCrum
Wine guru
1075
Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am
Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont
Thomas wrote:Oliver and Mark,
What about caramelized? That's a clear indication of cooking, and that's the one I look for in my sensory analysis. If it ain't there, I start looking for another reason.
Oxidation aroma is separate from caramelized; a sensory stimulation more like the smell of decay or death or infection rather than reduction, to which I equate caramelizing.
David M. Bueker
Riesling Guru
34424
Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am
Connecticut
Oliver McCrum wrote:David M. Bueker wrote:Oliver McCrum wrote:David,
No, I'm pointing out that the actual situation we face contains these variables, whether we like it or not.
'If the wine is ruined the wine is ruined...' is circular; yes, but why?
Who cares. Obviously you do, but I just return the stuff (reasonably new purchases only). If it's shot it's shot.
No one is going to do a scientific study to prove why any specific bottle of wine goes bad. It's impossible until somebody invents the "Super-Affordable Magic Flaw Detector."
That's what we're talking about, though; we all have had wines that taste off in various ways, but what off flavors are reliably associated with 'cooked?' You're a scientist, I would have thought this approach would make sense to you.
Oliver McCrum wrote:Thomas wrote:Oliver and Mark,
What about caramelized? That's a clear indication of cooking, and that's the one I look for in my sensory analysis. If it ain't there, I start looking for another reason.
Oxidation aroma is separate from caramelized; a sensory stimulation more like the smell of decay or death or infection rather than reduction, to which I equate caramelizing.
Wait, you're saying 'reductive' equals 'caramelised'? Really?
Mark Lipton wrote:Thomas wrote:Oliver and Mark,
What about caramelized? That's a clear indication of cooking, and that's the one I look for in my sensory analysis. If it ain't there, I start looking for another reason.
Oxidation aroma is separate from caramelized; a sensory stimulation more like the smell of decay or death or infection rather than reduction, to which I equate caramelizing.
Wow, you got me there, Thomas. I don't think that I've ever noticed a caramelized note from a wine. Butterscotch, yes, alas, but not caramel. Caramelization is an example of the Maillard reaction, which does require heat, as well as amines and sugars. I guess that we'll just have to open one of them together to see what we make of it.
Mark Lipton
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