Tastiest within two years of purchase?

I'm still looking for a substitute for Champagne. If you find one, please let me know!

Pinon's NV sparkling Vouvray? But you knew that already, no?

Mark Lipton

Hi,

Yes, I've had that and Huet. They're both terrific, but don't quite work the same pleasure center for me. I've had Franciacorta that was close, and I like Willi Brundlemayer's Sekt. Still not really a substitute.

Best,
Cliff

If you like Chablis, you will love good Muscadet. Marc Ollivier is a genius -- his Clos des Briords tends to run about $12, and the current vintage is ready to go;or you can keep it for twenty years. He's got a recently-released luxury cuvée that runs about $20 that has a Burgundian feel to it (it was aged on the lees for, I believe, about 18 months). I also love the wines of Luneau-Papin. I suspect you would like the Vouvrays of Forreau and the Secs of Domaine Huet. François Cazin makes beautiful spicey, minerally wines from Romorantin. François Chidaine makes great Chenin Blanc in Vouvray and Montlouis, as well as a very nice and affordable sparkling white. I would also hunt down the Sauvignon Blanc of Clos Roche Blanche. If you don't mind a little sweetness, that opens up a whole realm of possibilities in the Loire and elsewhere.

Cliff,

Thanks for these suggestions. I have added them to my list.

A little sweetness is not off putting and in fact will be a nice complement to certain foods.

Greg

I hope you like them. If you're open to demi-secs, you're pushing infinite numbers of great choices. I'd start by finding a local retailer who carries wines imported by Kermit Lynch, Joe Dressner, Neil Rosenthal, Terry Thiesse, and Rudi Wiest and go from there.

Best,
Cliff

I'm still looking for a substitute for Champagne.

Chablis.

Or did you want the bubbles?

Seems difficult to reproduce the focus and poise of the best Champagne elsewhere. Must be that terroir thing.

Although of course lots of other sparkling wines are great. Just not the same thing as Champagne.

I was thinking bubbles. Yes, there's lots of great fizz out there, but, alas, there is something about Champagne that makes finding alternatives unusually hard for me in this case.

No, I have not explored the Loire, but need to. Any additional thoughts there would be most welcome.

I'm sure Moore Brothers has some Loires. Look for reds from Chinon, Bourgueil and Saumur, which are made from Cabernet Franc, and Touraine as well. Different than Bordeaux, though CF is usually a component of Bordeaux blends, but outstanding at the dinner table with a whole variety of foods.

You should also check out Chambers Street Wines in New York -- http://www.chambersstwines.com. They will ship (the shipping cost is rarely much more than the sales tax you save -- except I forgot, you live in Delaware). They have the best selection of Loires anywhere this side of the Atlantic. And their salespeople are very informative and helpful, whether you're communicating by phone or email.

In addition, since you like to have wine with food, you should explore cru Beaujolais (e.g., Fleurie, Morgon, Moulin-a-Vent, Julienas, Brouilly, etc.). Try one or two and see if they're up your alley. They're incredibly food-friendly and while while many are actually surprisingly ageworthy, most can be enjoyed young as well. Here again, Moore Bros and Chambers St. should be good sources.

Ditto what others have said about other appellations for Nebbiolo (Gattinara, Ghemme, Carema, Valtellina...). You might also try Barbera from Piedmont, which is very acidic and goes well with tomato-based sauces as well as a variety of other foods, IMO.

In addition, since you like to have wine with food, you should explore cru Beaujolais (e.g., Fleurie, Morgon, Moulin-a-Vent, Julienas, Brouilly, etc.). Try one or two and see if they're up your alley. They're incredibly food-friendly and while while many are actually surprisingly ageworthy, most can be enjoyed young as well. Here again, Moore Bros and Chambers St. should be good sources.

Big yes. If you like Barolo and red Burgundy, start in Morgon (Desvignes, Foillard, Lapierre). If you like meaty, black-fruited reds, try Fleurie (esp. Coudert) and any number of producers in Moulin-à-Vent. I think of Brouilly and Juliénas as somewhere in between--others will disagree.

Last couple good postings here beat me to the punch recommending good classic-style Beaujolais. That's a wine category to reward the astute and selective buyer, because a formerly straightforward picture was confused in recent years by profuse new-style, light, ephemeral Beauj. characterized by smells of ethyl and amyl acetate and cited with disparagement or dismay, for example, in the British wine trade as "pear-drop" wines, allusion to a classic hard candy in UK artificially flavored with those same fruit esters. (They also are components in the wine aroma category volatile acidity.) Common denominator in that newer style (I'll call it Beaujolais Lite) is complete or partial use of carbonic maceration, which ferments considerably before the fruit is crushed. Such a backlash has this generated among fine-wine producers in the greater Burgundy region that "carbonic maceration" is parodied using another word very close to "maceration." (The Beaujolais district is technically part of Burgundy but isn't what's conventionally meant in the phrase "red Burgundy wines"; the Beaujolais uses its distinctive red-wine grape, Gamay, and a feature of its wines is that they are a type not imitated, to speak of, in North America.) The pinnacle, if that is the word, of Beaujolais Lite is Beaujolais Nouveau. More on that subject Here.

More classic, substantial Beaujolais are good examples of red wines often needing a year or two to come together. Of "Cru" towns or communes cited in previous two postings, Moulin-à-Vent and Morgon are traditionally the first and second heaviest of the traditional nine (the rest, offhand, are Fleurie, Brouilly, Côte de Brouilly, Juliénas, Chiroubles, Chénas, and Saint-Amour). Note that relentless over-marketing of Beaujolais Lite was spearheaded by many products of the Georges DuBoeuf firm. Though that firm also offers non-Lite products (a few), and though some wine geeks may howl at this because DuBoeuf was their personal introduction to Beaujolais wines, one simple method to help avoid Lite is steer well clear of DuBoeuf. (Jadot and to a lesser extent Drouhin, the large diversified Burgundy firms based in Beaune and gracious to visitors may I add, are among respectable, longtime producers offering more classic, meaty Beaujolais; other smaller firms specialize in them as already posted.)

Beyond Beaujolais, I've bought many moderately-priced good red wines since 1970s that required a year or two to come together. Because I and many folk I know like Pinot-Noir wines (most of which still are, and all of which used to be, made outside the Americas) I came to special interest in inexpensive red Burgundies, which can give amazing value in the $10-$25 range. (Please don't tell all those people who fight each other for the latest new Pacific-coast winery's fashionable maling-list $75 Pinot Noir.) One aspect of these wines is that they often need a year or two, they're often not prime to drink when released to market. The other main feature is that they aren't wines to buy by formula -- by seeing a list of specific recommendations. Rather, you learn what to look for generally, then try new ones steadily, and when you find one you like, pounce. I've found several dozen notable wines in this category from Burgundy in the last 25 years at $10-$25 (2007 dollars) and some of them were very good, far above expectations for that price range. Typical label appellations of these have been Bourgognes Rouges (the most basic label); Côte d'Or regionals (Côte de Beaune, Côte de Nuits, Hauts-Côte-de-Beaune, Chorey-les-Beaune, etc.) or wines at "village" level or above that are either less-trophyphied or less-pronounceable (Aloxe-Corton, Auxey-Duresses, Santenay, St.-Aubin); and labels from the up-and-coming, not-yet-chic Côte Chalonnaise (Givry, Mercurey, Montagny, Rully, etc.). It helps if it's a good Burgundy year. 2005 is a good Burgundy year.

Even now in the price-inflated 2005 Burgundy vintage, I recently found a few glorious wines with more-fashionable label appellations (in the Côte de Beaune specifically) at $20 to $30 via deliberate regular blind tasting with groups of like-minded consumers (the best and most economical technique for these searches) -- a recent tasting of eight fine 2005 Côte d'Or Burgundies split among 13 tasters cost us all of $34 each.

For a US example of a similar class of Pinot Noir, pure intense varietal character, often better in a year or two, Lazy Creek's current release of "Red Table Wine" (appellation Anderson Valley, California) is $20 at its few retail outlets in my region and you may be able to find it, or certainly order it if you aren't in a no-ship-to state. (Any of you in the Bay Area, note Whole Foods, Los Altos, is one such outlet, its buyer loves Lazy Creek and currently has several dozen of that, as well as others, in stock. Somewhat less than before I visited.)

Bruce, Cliff, Max and the rest.

Once again thanks. I have saved a copy of this thread to my PDA so that on my next trip to the wine store, I can use the invaluable info you have supplied to guide my purchases.

You have all been most generous with your time and knowledge and I greatly appreciate your help.

I also now know why, the members of this board always recommend creating a cellar that is at least two times as big as you think you need.

Greg

You have all been most generous with your time and knowledge and I greatly appreciate your help.

Gracious of you to say so. As you may realize, it's not totally one-way: Questions (and this was a good thoughtful one) also provoke discussion and exchange, and teach stuff to all of us. Also, some folks (including several people here) use forum threads to post tasting notes, or collect thoughts on a subject. We can then link back to them, from this or another forum, if the topic arises. (I got into that habit some time ago!)

Gracious of you to say so.

Indeed. I hope the recs. pan out for you. I just realized that in the Beaujolais section, I went straight for my favorites, in terms of villages but neglected the absolute first two wines to try, Domaine du Vissoux / Pierre-Marie Chermette, cuvée traditionnelle; and Jean-Paul Brun's Cuvée l'Ancien. They are both beautiful, pure, and approachable, if modest wines. I just had a bottle of the 2005 Chermette, and it was wonderful; it has really transformed itself in only a year since release. These wines will be in their prime much closer to the window you mentioned earlier on.

• 2005 Domaine du Vissoux / Pierre-Marie Chermette Beaujolais Vieilles Vignes Cuvée Traditionnelle - France, Burgundy, Beaujolais (11/21/2007)
  This is beyond good. How did it get here in only a year, and, more importantly, why did I only buy a few? Anyone sitting on a stash of these is in for some good times. A touch smokey, layered, with black cherries, plums, spice. Okay, perhaps not the greatest depth, but very, very compelling.

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