Nightshade plants and arthritis

Everything about food, from matching food and wine to recipes, techniques and trends.

Moderators: Jenise, David M. Bueker, Robin Garr

Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Karen/NoCA » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:39 pm

Why have I not heard about this? I was commenting on the beautiful tomatoes and bell peppers last week at our local Farmer's Market. A long time male friend who is 86 and the picture of health, with a full head of hair, tall, straight, bright mind, clear skin, great teeth (who I think lives on broccoli) told me he does not eat nightshade plants. While I have heard of the nightshade family, I had not heard that they do/could have something to do with inflammation in the body, such as arthritis. I have a little in a knee, but this week, even with the extreme heat, it seems to have crept into other areas. I've also been eating a great amount of tomatoes, peppers of all kinds, and some eggplant. Potatoes, not so much.

Has anyone had any experience with this? If you have arthritis does the nightshade family of produce play a role in how you feel? I have read contradicting scientific articles, some seem very questionable with not much backing, others seem very well researched.
Karen/NoCA
Hunter/Gatherer
 
Posts: 5264
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:55 pm

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Carrie L. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:52 am

I haven't tested it but have heardand read a lot about that theory. Would like to try eliminating them just to see if I saw some improvement. I think I have arthritis in my feet and ankles. Notice it mostly upon waking up.
Hello. My name is Carrie, and I...I....still like oaked Chardonnay. (I feel so much better now.)
User avatar
Carrie L.
Golfball Gourmet
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:12 am
Location: Extreme Southwest & Extreme Northeast

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:54 am

Carrie L. wrote:I haven't tested it but have heardand read a lot about that theory. Would like to try eliminating them just to see if I saw some improvement. I think I have arthritis in my feet and ankles. Notice it mostly upon waking up.


Could also be early stages of gout, which is a form of arthritis with very specific diet-related causes--nightshades aren't one of them, though.
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:31 pm

Karen, I sniffed around.

The University of Washington website says: "No foods have been definitively shown to cause or exacerbate arthritis in most indviduals. A variety of diets and hand-me-down information exists about certain foods but none of it has been proven."

The key to that disclaimer is probably their use of the word 'most', which seems to allow that some highly sensitive individuals might have a different experience. The website of a non-profit organization that calls itself the George Meteljan Foundation sheds more light on that:

"Potatoes, tomatoes, sweet and hot peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, tamarios, pepinos, pimentos, paprika, and cayenne peppers are classified as nightshade foods. A particular group of substances in these foods, called alkaloids, can impact nerve-muscle function and digestive function in animals and humans, and may also be able to compromise joint function. Because the amount of alkaloids is very low in nightshade foods when compared with other nightshade plants, health problems from nightshade foods may only occur in individuals who are especially sensitive to these alkaloid substances. Since cooking only lowers alkaloid content of nightshade foods by about 40-50%, highly sensitive individuals may want to avoid this category of food altogether, while non-sensitive individuals may be able to eat these foods, especially in cooked form, without problem....

Nightshades are a diverse group of foods, herbs, shrubs, and trees that have fascinated scientists, doctors, and nutritionists for centuries. "Nightshade" is actually the common name used to describe over 2,800 species of plants, many with very different properties and constituents. All of the plants, however, belong to a scientific order called Polemoniales, and to a scientific family called Solanaceae. To give you an idea of the diversity associated with this group of plants, consider the fact that tobacco, morning glory, potato, and tomato are all classified as nightshades.

Nightshades are actually more famous as drugs than as foods. The best-known nightshades when it comes to pharmacy include mandrake (Mandragora officinum), tobacco (Nicotiana tabacum) and belladonna, also called deadly nightshade (Atropa belladonna).

What has interested scientists most about nightshades in a pharmacological sense is a group of compounds in them called alkaloids. The alkaloids found in nightshades are not only the basis for consideration of nightshades as drugs, but also for understanding adverse reactions to nightshades when they are eaten as food. Adverse reactions to nightshade alkaloids are discussed further in the health effects section of this nightshade profile.

The most famous food members of the nightshade family include potatoes (Solanum tuberosum), tomatoes (Lycopersicon esculentum), many species of sweet and hot peppers (all species of Capsicum, including Capsicum annum), and eggplant (Solanum melongena). Less well know, but equally genuine nightshade foods include ground cherries (all species of Physalis), tomatillos (Physallis ixocapra), garden huckleberry (Solanum melanocerasum), tamarillos (Cyphomandra betacea), pepinos (Solanum muricatum), and naranjillas (Solanum quitoense). Pimentos (also called pimientos) belong to the nightshade family, and usually come from the pepper plant Capsicum annum. Pimento cheese and pimento-stuffed olives are therefore examples of foods that should be classified as containing nightshade components. Although the sweet potato, whose scientific name is Ipomoea batatas, belongs to the same plant order as the nightshades (Polemoniales), it does not belong to the Solanaceae family found in this order, but to a different plant family called Convolvulaceae.

The seasoning paprika is also derived from Capsicum annum, the common red pepper, and the seasoning cayenne comes from another nightshade, Capsicum frutenscens. Hot sauces that contain hot peppers should also be considered as a nightshade food. It may be helpful to note here that black pepper, which belongs to the Piperaceae family, is not a member of the nightshade foods.

Most of the health research on nightshades has focused on a special group of substances found in all nightshades called alkaloids. In chemical terms, alkaloids are easy to identify because they all have at least one ring-like structure that contains the element nitrogen. Plants produce alkaloids as a regular part of their biochemical activity, and these alkaloids are primarily designed to help protect the plants from insects that would otherwise eat them....

The steroid alkaloids in potato - primarily solanine and chaonine - have been studied for their health effects in two areas. First is their ability to block activity of an enzyme in nerve cells called cholintesterase. Many of the alkaloids found in nightshades possess this kind of activity, called cholinesterase inhibition. If the activity of cholinesterase is too strongly blocked, the nervous system control of muscle movement becomes disrupted, and muscle twitching, trembling, paralyzed breathing, or convulsions can result. The steroid alkaloids found in potato have clearly been shown to block cholinesterase activity, but this block does not usually appear strong enough to produce nerve-muscle disruptions like twitching or trembling.

A second type of problem potentially related to the potato alkaloids involves damage to the joints caused by inflammation and altered mineral status. Whether alkaloids can contribute to joint damage of this kind is not clear from current levels of research. Some researchers have speculated that nightshade alkaloids can contribute to excessive loss of calcium from bone and excessive depositing of calcium in soft tissue. For this reason, these researchers have recommended elimination of nightshade foods from the meal plans of all individuals with osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other joint problems like gout.

Just as there is no firm research evidence for the impact of the steroid alkaloids in nightshade foods on the nervous system or joints, there is also no solid research evidence for impact of the more drug-like alkaloids in nightshade foods on body systems....

Steaming, boiling, and baking all help reduce the alkaloid content of nightshades. Alkaloids are only reduced, however, by about 40-50% from cooking. For non-sensitive individuals, the cooking of nightshade foods will often be sufficient to make the alkaloid risk from nightshade intake insignificant. However, for sensitive individuals, the remaining alkaloid concentration may be enough to cause problems.

...if you are an individual with existing joint problems like osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, or gout, temporary 2-3 week elimination of nightshade foods from your meal plan may be a worthwhile step to determine if these foods could be contributing to your joint problems. This same recommendation would apply to individuals with existing nervous system problems, particularly nerve-muscle related problems."
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Fred Sipe » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:54 pm

I suffer from gout and when it flares up it hurts like hell. Puts me on crutches sometimes. I eat a lot of nightshades when they are in season and they don't seem to cause me any grief.

With gout, it's the foods that contain purines that are to be avoided. Unfortunately, that includes many of my favorite foods. Asparagus, shellfish - especially mussels - red meats and gravies are particularly aggravating. Many other things too.

And beer (especially) and wine. Damn.

I also understand that wheat (gluten) and sugars can cause "chromic" inflammation that affects joints.

Too much to worry about so I generally just don't. And when it hurts, it hurts.
User avatar
Fred Sipe
Ultra geek
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Location: Sunless Rust-Belt NE Ohio

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:54 pm

Fred Sipe wrote:I suffer from gout and when it flares up it hurts like hell. Puts me on crutches sometimes.


I have much sympathy for you! Gout's a family curse, and I recently found out--the hard way--that I have it too. It's all so new that I have yet to figure out what's going to set it off or not--yes, I have the purine list but episodes haven't tracked that exactly. Since the diagnosis I had one beer and the next day could hardly walk. Another day I woke up with a problem, and the day before I'd not had a single thing from the Avoid list, so wha-a-a-a?

Anyway, considering the gout and the number of meals per week for me that consist almost entirely of tomatoes, I think we can presume I'm not someone with nightshade sensitivity. :)
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Karen/NoCA » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 pm

Interesting comments and well researched Jenise. Thanks!

A few of my issues have cleared up somewhat, and I think it stems from a lower back issue that I may or may not have about once a year. Stretching has done wonders for me this week, especially when I do it before I get up in the morning. I should take lessons from my Havanese who never gets up from a nap without stretching first.
Cats do that too.

I will not give up my tomatoes, peppers, wine or anything right now. Too many things come into play with aging. Plus having a house guest, going into five months has caused some stress. Being the control freak that I am, I have put some of the pressure on our grandson for his own food requirements, releasing me from the worry. :twisted:

Still, it is good to try and be on top of things, and learn a little each day.
Karen/NoCA
Hunter/Gatherer
 
Posts: 5264
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:55 pm

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Frank Deis » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:25 pm

Jenise wrote:"Potatoes, tomatoes, sweet and hot peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, tamarios, pepinos, pimentos, paprika, and cayenne peppers are classified as nightshade foods."


I think, given that list, that I choose inflammation and arthritis.

No hot peppers, no heirloom tomatoes, no Yukon Golds? Phooey.
Frank Deis
Wine guru
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:20 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:25 pm

Frank, I had similar thoughts. In fact, at this very moment those three items are #1, 2 and 3 of what I have the most of. Never stopped to consider that most of my favorite things are nightshades.
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Harry Cantrell » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:37 pm

Jenise, please reread the last sentence you posted from U Wash. Increased verbiage (in the next long quote) does not make more proof. IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.
Harry C.
Harry Cantrell
Ultra geek
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:18 pm

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:09 pm

Harry Cantrell wrote:Jenise, please reread the last sentence you posted from U Wash. Increased verbiage (in the next long quote) does not make more proof. IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.


I understand that completely. And I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm neither for it nor against it; and I didn't choose to offer more words to load one side of the argument. The tiny U of W quote is what I found in it's entirety. The other had interesting stuff so I included what seemed interesting and relevant.

But I have to admit I'm not impressed with the argument that "it's not proven". It's no different than my doctor mentioning to me that cherry juice seems to help a lot of people with gout flare-ups--there are a lot of things people have learned works or works against certain conditions long before science gets around to proving them. And I have no problem believing that a few but not "most individuals" have ultra sensitivities of the type mentioned.
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Redwinger » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:18 pm

Jenise-
Unfortunately, I have never found an herbal, OTC or folk medicine that works on my gout attacks and lordy knows I've tried about all of them. I even quit drinking beer (actually quit all alcohol) last year in hopes it would help. Nope. In May I suffered the worst gout ever. Even the prescription stuff seemed to lack its usual "punch".
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
Redwinger
Wine guru
 
Posts: 3927
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:38 pm

Redwinger wrote:Jenise-
Unfortunately, I have never found an herbal, OTC or folk medicine that works on my gout attacks and lordy knows I've tried about all of them. I even quit drinking beer (actually quit all alcohol) last year in hopes it would help. Nope. In May I suffered the worst gout ever. Even the prescription stuff seemed to lack its usual "punch".


Uh oh, that's scary and I'm sorry to hear this. One would hope that after making all the right sacrifices, one would be 'safe'. I have a good friend here in his 50's who has suffered with gout since his late 20's, and who hasn't had an attack since he bought some kind of machine that treats all his drinking water to a very high Ph. Dietarily he has also quit eating meat but for the rare piece of chicken--but of course he gives all the credit to his $3000 machine. I don't know what to make of that!
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jeff Grossman/NYC » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:43 am

My Dad has had gout for a thousand years. He takes one pill every morning (allopurinol) and he's good for anything.

Every couple of years he quits the pill, just to make sure he still needs it. He gets about two weeks before things start hurting....
Jeff Grossman/NYC
That 'pumpkin' guy
 
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:56 am
Location: NYC

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Drew Hall » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:32 am

Really interesting stuff. I don't suffer from gout but found the below article after reading about the friend of Jenise.

Drew


Natural Gout Treatment - Alkaline Water As A Natural Gout Remedy
By John Mepham

I discussed the value of drinking water in natural gout treatment in earlier articles. Of course all types of water are not equal, for example hard water is better than soft because of its additional mineral content and distilled water is acidic. Probably the best of all waters for natural gout treatment is alkaline water, also called ionized water.

The reason is that alkaline water has a higher pH value than other kinds. Alkaline water is water with more oxygen, in this case OH-, not O2. Drinking it makes the body more alkaline. In this state, the body is likely to excrete more uric acid. Reducing uric acid levels to below 6.0 mg/dL (men), slightly less in women, is the target of most forms of gout treatment whether drug medications or natural remedies. Alkaline water is also an antioxidant which squelches free radicals.

MAKING ALKALINE WATER

Most people are not able to buy alkaline water at their local supermarket or grocery store. You have to make it yourself. It's not difficult. Basically you can either add alkaline drops to regular water or you can have a water ionizer do it for you. Alkaline drops can be purchased via the Internet and delivered to you, search alkaline water drops, or alkaline drops.

Ionizers are easily installed to your faucet (tap). Most people will not need a plumber or next door neighbour. The ionizers of course cost more, but the water they produce is cheaper over time, say the manufacturers of one leading brand, than buying bottled water of various kinds. So it will pay in the end to think long term and fork out more cash.

For a quality ionizer expect to pay from US$769 to US$2,495 for a top-of-the-range-model. (These are U.S. prices. Prices will vary in other countries). You also need to replace the ionizer's biostone filter about every nine months. Filters cost from US$55 to US$85. The ionizer may last up to 20 years.

IONIZERS ARE BETTER THAN DROPS

As well as being cheaper than drops, ionizers can be adjusted to produce a water pH of a specific value more accurately. Set it to pH 8.5 or pH 9.0 for example. They can also produce purified water and leave you with acidic water, which has its uses. Moreover, the best water ionizers adjust for the overall quality of water supply input. By so doing, they produce a correct pH level, irrespective of water supply quality, water pressure and flow rate.

After a period of drinking alkaline water your body pH should rise. How will you know? Saliva pH can be tested with pH test strips (search pH test strips or pH stix). Your saliva pH is a good indication of your body's pH levels. Make sure you follow the manufacturer's instructions for using them carefully. Record numbers and watch for trend changes over time. A few tests are not enough.

ALKALINE WATER TESTIMONIALS

Testimonials from delighted former gout sufferers can be found in many places on the Internet. Unfortunately they are not everything for every gout sufferer because gout is a complicated, still not wholly understood disease, and because what works for one sufferer may not work for others.

Moreover, however sincerely meant, and truthfully stated, testimonials may not be accurate in the long term because gout can go into remission and lie low for a long period before flaring up again. On the other hand there are testimonials from people who have not had a gout attack for 1-2 years or more, and this probably indicates a cure has been achieved.

Testimonials from gout sufferers, (one is a doctor), about the value of alkaline water can be read at http://www.ionizers.org/alkalife-testimonials.html and at http://www.waterionizer.org/site/898596/page/443030#33

Hopefully these indicate that the theory has indeed shaken hands with the practice, and the rejoicing is happily justified. Most gout sufferers hope for a natural remedy for gout. Taking account of pH is part of natural gout treatment.

NB. The contents of this article contain medical information not medical advice. Please always discuss gout remedies with your doctor or other health care professional before implementing anything.

John Mepham has spent much time researching gout. His best tip for curing gout naturally? Get to your ideal weight whatever the sacrifices may be. Learn more about natural gout treatment and natural remedies for gout at http://www.gout-smashers-guide.com It's an e-book with an emphasis on natural gout treatment.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=John_Mepham
User avatar
Drew Hall
Wine guru
 
Posts: 865
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 9:07 am
Location: Bel Air, Maryland

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Frank Deis » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:09 am

There are people trying to get very rich off of $2000 "water ionizers" that do nobody any good.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=13815

Water already contains oxygen, both dissolved and as part of CO2. Snopes says

Now comes the water ionizer, the "ionized" alkaline water it produces, the "special drinking water." Not only are these marketed waters and the ionizing machines expensive, but they are, according to scientists, "medically baseless and worthless." Most of the good effects these manufacturers claim for their products are available in healthy food items, like fish, fruits, bran, wheat, nuts, vegetables, and water purified by the most advanced multiple-stage reverse-osmosis filtration system. It might come as a surprised to many but boiled water, minus its sediments, is safer than some of this expensive drinking water. Using the commercially available home water filtration pitcher or the below-the-sink filtration system, and then boiling the water will even double the protection. This will certainly not cost $1500-$2500 like the ionizers.
Frank Deis
Wine guru
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:20 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Robin Garr » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:22 am

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:My Dad has had gout for a thousand years. He takes one pill every morning (allopurinol) and he's good for anything.

Every couple of years he quits the pill, just to make sure he still needs it. He gets about two weeks before things start hurting....

After many years of eating and drinking professionally :mrgreen: I am extremely grateful that I haven't had to suffer gout. <knocking wood>

I've also heard very good reports on allopurinol as the miracle med, but apparently it doesn't work to stop an active attack but to prevent future attacks.

It's also my understanding that the old wisdom about over-eating rich food and drinking too much being the cause of gout is profoundly exaggerated, but that one of the best ways to keep the monster at bay is still to take off some pounds and keep them off, even if you're not obese.
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 17155
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Frank Deis » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:02 am

I agree with everything you said, Robin.

I teach about gout, it's a metabolic disorder. There is an even worse version called the Lesch-Nyhan Syndrome, in which people feel compelled to injure themselves. Allopurinol directly inhibits the enzyme that produces Uric Acid, and it works well but I've talked to people who get side effects from it.

Drinking Port was one of the old "causes" of gout. Really because it is a disease of purines, Port should have little to do with it (unless you drink enough Port to become obese). Organ meats, like sweetbreads, have a lot of DNA and DNA has a lot of purines.

I've heard that just drinking a lot of water (ionized or not) can be very helpful with the symptoms.
Frank Deis
Wine guru
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:20 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Redwinger » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:19 pm

Frank Deis wrote:I've heard that just drinking a lot of water (ionized or not) can be very helpful with the symptoms.

Proper hydration seems to be the key to prevention for me. I don't suffer frequent attacks perhaps once/year, but proper hydration is part of my prevention program. Trying to rehydrate after an onset, doesn't seem to do me much good.
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
Redwinger
Wine guru
 
Posts: 3927
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Fred Sipe » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:40 pm

I avoid taking meds that are required daily for the rest of my life, so have stayed away from the Allopurinol and others.

I do have a scrip though for Indomethacin which is an NSAID that knocks it pretty well if taken at the onset.
User avatar
Fred Sipe
Ultra geek
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Location: Sunless Rust-Belt NE Ohio

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:10 pm

Fred Sipe wrote:I avoid taking meds that are required daily for the rest of my life, so have stayed away from the Allopurinol and others.

I do have a scrip though for Indomethacin which is an NSAID that knocks it pretty well if taken at the onset.


It's encouraging to meet someone who is managing it without medication (or expensive water machines), Fred.
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Joe Moryl » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:20 am

The science behind the alkaline water thing is bollocks. Snake oil.
Joe Moryl
Wine guru
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Nightshade plants and arthritis

Postby Jenise » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Joe Moryl wrote:The science behind the alkaline water thing is bollocks. Snake oil.


I'm fully prepared to believe that!
My wine shopping and I have never had a problem. Just a perpetual race between the bankruptcy court and Hell.--Rogov
Jenise
FLDG Dishwasher
 
Posts: 26385
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:45 pm
Location: The Pacific Northest Westest


Return to The Forum Kitchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests