Wet Dough for Bread and Pizza

[Howie Hart]

On Chat last week, I had a conversation with JuliaB regarding the wet dough method for making pizza crust and bread. Several years ago, there were several threads on the topic, with lots of input from Walt Carpenter (who, apparently hasn't posted here in quite a while). Here is a link to one of those threads from the archives: http://www.myspeakerscorner.com/forum/index.phtml?fn=2&tid=50831&mid=430584
I've used wet dough for pizza since this was posted. Forming the crust requires having a bowl of water handy to dip your hands in to keep them wet, as the dough is very sticky. Anyone else using wet dough?

[Christina Georgina]

I much prefer wet doughs. The crumb and crust are superior in my opinion. The other essential element is that the slower the rise, the better. I use less yeast and let the dough rise in the garage or if not cold enough in the fridge. The differece has to do with the fact that yeast requires higher temps to create the gas for the rise but the flavor develops from the bacterial proliferation at lower temps.
For pizza you should be able to "windowpane "the dough - that is stretch is to translucency without ripping if you are going for a thin crust pizza. You can not do this with a dry dough.
I don't get it so wet that additional water is needed to shape but do brush the dough with 50/50 olive oil and water when I'm baking in the wood fired oven

[Paul Winalski]

Christina,

Do you really mean "bacterial proliferation"? Is there a sourdough element involved here? Or do you mean extra proliferation of the yeast cells (which are a fungus, not bacteria) at lower temperatures but with less gas?

-Paul W.

[Christina Georgina]

I do mean the bacteria in a starter that give the dough flavor if allowed to proloferate a long time a a low temp. Yeast will proliferate as well but at a much slower rate at lower temps

[Mark Lipton]

I do mean the bacteria in a starter that give the dough flavor if allowed to proloferate a long time a a low temp. Yeast will proliferate as well but at a much slower rate at lower temps

Christina,
Just to add to what Paul said, but my impression has always been that sour dough starters are simply wild strains of yeast, but yeast nonetheless. There might very well be bacterial cofermentations occurring, but it's yeast that will do the primary fermentation (conversion of sugars to CO2 and ethanol).

Out of curiosity, do you use a mechanical mixer for your wet doughs? I've always mixed and kneaded breads by hand and have been leery of trying to manipulate a wet dough without recourse to mechanical mixing.

Mark Lipton

[Cynthia Wenslow]

We have always used pretty slack doughs for pizza, and I also use a slack dough for ciabatta.

Mix by Kitchen Aid. For the ciabatta I use the paddle attachment only. I make a biga about 18 hours before I want to make the bread.

We try to always have one-week-aged pizza dough ready in the fridge. The difference in flavor and consistency is huge.

[Christina Georgina]

Re the mixing : Kitchen Aid paddle initially but finish it off by hand.
Re the starter: it is primarily the bacteria that can reproduce at lower temperatures that provide the flavor that Cynthia mentions in fridged doughs. The yeast generate the CO2 for the rise. There is a balance between the lactic acid produced by the bacteria and the yeast which is inhibited by low pH and low temp. I wish I could remember where it was that I read the most cogent explanation of this because it was fascinating and explained alot of things - not only re taste but also elasticity and gluten development. Perhaps McGee ?

[Howie Hart]

Here is a very interesting article on the subject from the NY Times (2006):
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html?pagewanted=all

The dough is so sticky that you couldn’t knead it if you wanted to. It is mixed in less than a minute, then sits in a covered bowl, undisturbed, for about 18 hours. It is then turned out onto a board for 15 minutes, quickly shaped (I mean in 30 seconds), and allowed to rise again, for a couple of hours. Then it’s baked. That’s it.
I asked Harold McGee, who is an amateur breadmaker and best known as the author of “On Food and Cooking” (Scribner, 2004), what he thought of this method. His response: “It makes sense. The long, slow rise does over hours what intensive kneading does in minutes: it brings the gluten molecules into side-by-side alignment to maximize their opportunity to bind to each other and produce a strong, elastic network. The wetness of the dough is an important piece of this because the gluten molecules are more mobile in a high proportion of water, and so can move into alignment easier and faster than if the dough were stiff.”

[Carrie L.]

This is all really interesting, because we've been on a bit of a pizza kick lately.
My question for everyone is...how do you get the dough (or entire raw pizza) onto the pizza stone (or grille) when it is in such a state? I have a hard enough time with a dry pizza dough.

[Robin Garr]

This is all really interesting, because we've been on a bit of a pizza kick lately.
My question for everyone is...how do you get the dough (or entire raw pizza) onto the pizza stone (or grille) when it is in such a state? I have a hard enough time with a dry pizza dough.

I cheat and build it on parchment paper on the peel. Slides right on to the stone, paper and all, without any structural issues.

[Rahsaan]

This is all really interesting, because we've been on a bit of a pizza kick lately.
My question for everyone is...how do you get the dough (or entire raw pizza) onto the pizza stone (or grille) when it is in such a state? I have a hard enough time with a dry pizza dough.

In my method, the most challenging part of pizza making is getting the dough into the oven onto the stone. Especially as I go for a dough that leans wet and thin. I carry it over right next to the oven on a cutting board, open the oven, put the cutting board right next to the stone and quickly slide the dough onto the hot stone. Then I quickly top the pizza and close the oven.

Over the years I've had plenty of failures where the dough has ripped and needed to be taken back out and sometimes re-rolled. This is especially annoying when guests are over and I've already been drinking, losing a bit of the edge of my skills! But, I've also gotten better over the years.

I have a peel for getting it out of the oven but have never been able to use the peel for putting a fully-topped pizza into the oven.

[Cynthia Wenslow]

I cheat and build it on parchment paper on the peel. Slides right on to the stone, paper and all, without any structural issues.

Not cheating. Sensible.

'Cause it's what we do, too.

We usually pull the parchment out from under after about 3 minutes. But sometimes we don't.

[Robin Garr]

We usually pull the parchment out from under after about 3 minutes. But sometimes we don't.

I usually do. It may be magical thinking, but it feels like a little direct crust-to-stone contact is a good thing. Once it has firmed up enough that the paper just yanks out. Plus, I don't think parchment paper would burn at oven heat, but it does get mighty brown at 550 or above.

[Cynthia Wenslow]

It may be magical thinking, but it feels like a little direct crust-to-stone contact is a good thing. Once it has firmed up enough that the paper just yanks out. Plus, I don't think parchment paper would burn at oven heat, but it does get mighty brown at 550 or above.

Agreed. Agreed. And agreed.

And, of course, it *is* Pizza Night tonight. Yum!

[Robin Garr]

And, of course, it *is* Pizza Night tonight. Yum!

Dang! I made Chinese again.

[Cynthia Wenslow]

Dang! I made Chinese again.

Yes, I was politely trying not to point that out in the What's Cooking thread. *sigh*

But we had pizza. Of course.

[Jenise]

Say, Cynthia, last night at a dinner party I went on and on about Wheat Montana citing you ordering it all the way from Austin as proof of it's goodness. I want everyone up here to buy it so that the brand sticks around.

[Cynthia Wenslow]

Say, Cynthia, last night at a dinner party I went on and on about Wheat Montana citing you ordering it all the way from Austin as proof of it's goodness. I want everyone up here to buy it so that the brand sticks around.

Oh, they've been in business since the 1960s or so. It's a family operation. I don't think they are going anywhere. And we certainly don't want demand to grow too much and raise our prices!

When I was last home in the Finger Lakes, I stopped into our favorite farm stand and there on the shelves was Wheat Montana flour! Instantly homesick for Montana.

[Jenise]

Wow, all the way to the Finger Lakes, that's an interesting development. And I'm not worried about them going out of business, only worried about their products continuing to be sold in my area.

[Ben Rotter]

I have been moving to wetter and wetter doughs (and slower fermentations) over the past six months. I find it helps to attain a more elastic dough, improved crumb, and a crust that is near-crisp at the edges yet deliciously chewy at centre.

my impression has always been that sour dough starters are simply wild strains of yeast, but yeast nonetheless. There might very well be bacterial cofermentations occurring, but it's yeast that will do the primary fermentation (conversion of sugars to CO2 and ethanol).

Sour dough starters are a mixture of yeast and lactic acid bacteria (LAB). It's the LAB that produce the aromas and flavours associated with the bread, including lactic acid (think of milk acid) and potentially acetic acid (think of vinegar) and make the bread "sour". The yeast still ferment the sugars and are still essentially responsible for the leavening.