Spain has enlightened me (A Thread about Smoking)

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Spain has enlightened me (A Thread about Smoking)

Postby Trevor F » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:48 pm

Cannot directly reply to Rogov's post on 'Spain has disappointed me ' , so I created this topic.

From being one of the more reactionary countries in Europe to one of the more progressive, I am delighted that Spain has introduced much more effective and practical anti-smoking regulations, compared with say Switzerland which is still 10 years behind in this respect.

If you want to smoke, geh' gesund as they say in Ladino, and find a relatively deserted stretch of beach around Caesarea or south of Bat Yam and smoke to your heart's content, but don't bother a lot of other people with cigarette or cigar smoke and smells.

Now all Spain has to do is to clean up its 'in your face' anti-semitism, plenty of which is still be found outside Madrid and off the beaten tourist track, and it would be perfect.
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Tim OL » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm

Trevor, Trevor, Trevor...

Why do you start with the assumption that you are the one and only person on this planet that matters...

The progressive movement or attitude brings nothing to the table but chaos. Life is fraught with people going down the wrong paths as they are deluded and tricked into wrong decisions.

Spain had it right and why they changed is a big disappointment and a mystery at this point.

Enlightened... give me a break

Tim
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Trevor F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:10 pm

Tim OL wrote:Why do you start with the assumption that you are the one and only person on this planet that matters...


Well, that's true. Most people think like that. Including smokers.


Social attitudes have changed over the last 10 years or so regarding smoking. Last night we saw the movie 'The King's Speech ' in which there is a scene near the start where the putative George VI is urged by one speech therapist to inhale cigarette smoke in order to relax the lungs. It caused a laugh. Incidentally I didn't think the film was as good as it was made out to be.

I walked out of the Casablanca restaurant in Zug, Switzerland, before Christmas, the only Moroccan restaurant in the town. They had re-arranged the internal partitions to make the dining room smaller as smoking is permitted if the room is under a certain area. I had ordered a vegetable couscous when the lady at the next table lit up, so I cancelled the order and left. The owner kept saying sorry, sorry but too late. I did return there for lunch though a few days later when the room had become smoke-free again.
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Daniel Rogov » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Trevor, Hi..

I am not depriving you of your rights as a non-smoker but let me ask several questions:

-Would you be offended and walk out if the perfume of the woman sitting at the table next to you was offensively strong?
-Would you be offended if the man at the table next to you was wearing a particularly strong after-shave lotion?
-Would you walk out if a nearby person had a strong smell of perspiration?
-What about garlic on the breath?
-What about those people at nearby tables who insist on eating with their mouths open?
-What about people of whose manner of dress you do not approve?

Would appreciate your response to the above. Whatever, your responses are fair enough but then I have to ask:

-Why do you even bother to go to a restaurant at which smoking is permitted?

As often I have said, it is legal to plant and grow tobacco; it is legal to cure that tobacco; it is legal to then process that tobacco into cigarettes; it is legal to sell those cigarettes; it is legal to purchase those cigarettess. Does it not seem that it should be legal after all of that to smoke them?

As I have also often said, smokers who partake in their habit (or yes, even addiction) with full knowledge have chosen a certain option in life. That waives neither the rights of the smoker or the non-smoker. It does mean, however, that in places at which smoking is allowed the non-smoker has neither the moral nor legal choice but to yield. .... Or to find a restaurant that may not serve Moroccoan food.

Think if you will that smokers also have rights. Indeed those rights should involve behavior that is both genteel and proper with regard to those who are non-smokers but ....

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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Trevor F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:37 pm

After shave lotion, garlic, perspiration, cross-dressing, open mouths, closed mouths, etc. are not life-threatening. Some of them may be unpleasant but they are not health threatening. Active or passive smoking is not healthy.

If you want to smoke somewhere please go ahead and find somewhere without other people present. About 18 months ago I had an operation for cancer, it was operable but I'm not quite out of the woods yet, although we're gradually trying to head that way .
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Daniel Rogov » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Trevor,

With regard to your illness, I wish you only the very best.

As to the life-threatening aspects of smoking, those in the first world who choose to do so do it as an option and the solutions to impacting on others have little to do with draconic laws but far more with behaving like civilized ladies and gentlemen.

As it is clear that I will not smoke in a no smoking area within a restaurant, it should also be clear that those smokers and non-smokers who patronize those smoking areas do so knowing what is involved. That some cities, including those in Spain have banned smoking in many public parks and even out-of-doors in many neighborhoods is truly draconic. As is the law that you may smoke in your own home but only if the windows are closed so that you might not annoy your neighbors. More than draconic in my opinion - out and out ridiculous.

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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Mark Lieser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:30 pm

Sorry Daniel, but I don't believe you have a scientific leg to stand on here.

All of the olfactory annoyances you mentioned are bothersome. Cigarette smoke is deadly - not just to the smoker, but to eveyone in the area who inhales it. What you seem to ignore is the employees of the eating/drinking establishment - in other words the wait staff, cooking staff, cleaning staff, etc. Don't modern standards of workplace safety guarantee them the right to work in an environment that won't kill them? It is against the law to expose a worker to asbestos. Please explain why second hand cigarette smoke is any different.

There is nothing absurdly draconian about these laws. They reflect current knowledge of the effects of cigarette smoke, and a 21st century right of a worker not to have his job be the cause of his premature death.

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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Daniel Rogov » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:44 pm

Mark, Hi...

Of course what you say makes perfect sense. Considering, however, that this ours is a food and wine forum I do ask you, to factor into your logic that the vast majority of chefs and winemakers both in the United States and Europe smoke. With regard to waiters, I cannot speak to North America but in Europe (and the Middle-East) so is that true with the majority of waiters and bartenders.

Can you honestly tell me that laws against smoking in one's own home only if the windows are closed so that you will not threaten the life of your neighbors is anything but draconic? Or, for that matter, that smoking in public parks is now forbidden in many cities or that in New York City it is currently illegal to smoke within 35 feet of the entrance to a public building.

Indeed, I am not calling for free smoking privileges in hospitals, restaurants, airplanes or office buildings. What I am calling for is the recognition that smokers are not criminals and that they too have both rights and privileges. Indeed, what I am calling for might be thought of as little more than a combination of common sense and common courtesy.

By the way...you are dealing with a man who will not smoke in your home if that annoys you. I am a person who will also put out my cigarette if someone sitting near me even at an open-air cafe says politely that my smoking is bothering them and there are no other places to take a table. On the other hand, when confronted rudely at such a cafe my first response is to inform the offended party that he or she is seated in a smoking area. If they continue being rude I will then completely ignore them. ...and as I ignore them I shall continue smoking.

And yes, I will play this out to the hilt. I am even considering forming a knesset faction that will stand for the rights of smokers.*

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*Nah....I'm not really considering the knesset. That would probably kill me faster than the cigarettes.
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Mark Lieser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:39 pm

Daniel:
1. Don't run for Knesset. It will take away whatever respect I have for you.
2. I have to call you on the carpet on the issue of smoking behind closed doors. The science is not on your side there either. There is now a growing body of medical evidence that children who live in apartment buildings in which their particular apartment is smoke free, but others in the building smoke behind closed doors - have a significantly higher incidence of respiratory problems than those who live in houses. The mere presence of residual smoke coming out from behind doors or in ventilation systems is apparently enough to cause medically significant harm

So, even your "closed doors" doesn't keep your toxins far enough away from innocent bystanders. And once again, regardless of how many kitchen workers smoke, they should not have the right to smoke in the presence of non smokers IN THE WORKPLACE. No different than asking someone to work in an asbestos factory.

3. My wife suggested I not use the following, but what the hell: You noted earlier that growing tobacco and making cigarettes is legal, so logically, smoking should be, too. Well, I can legally have sex with my wife. I cannot legally do it in public, or wherever I want. So that argument of yours won't work!

4. I commend your willingness to defer to non smokers. As an aside, one short story: Shortly after moving to Israel - and this was after the no smoking laws were in place, although not as strictly enforced as they are now - my wife and I dined at a rather fancy Jerusalem restaurant. We asked the waiter to ask a man who was smoking to extinguish his cigarette. Upon hearing this request, the smoker came over to our table, lit up a fresh one, blew smoke in our faces, and told us to go back to whatever country we came from.

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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Daniel Rogov » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:47 pm

Sent to me by my most faithful correspondent, the report of a research study that indicating that the links between "passive smoking" and illness may have been very exaggerated.

It goes without saying that this is an emotionally packed subject but this seems to be a valid study and published in one of the world's most highyly respected journals. It is also apparent that anti-smoking groups have attacked the study.

May I merely suggest that if anyone cares to coment or react that we limit our own discussions to hypotheses and facts and to strive to put our emotions and "taking sides" out of the issue.

The article about the study can be found at:

http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-05-16/n ... ing-spouse
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Tim OL » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:39 pm

Daniel Rogov wrote:Sent to me by my most faithful correspondent, the report of a research study that indicating that the links between "passive smoking" and illness may have been very exaggerated.


This report I can surely believe... I do not share Mark's enthusiasm for the validity of the scientific data that is whirling around in the wind. One only has to look at the recent exposure of the global warming data to understand that most if not all the published data on smoking is suspect. When a scientific report is issued and right off the bat declares that 23 million people have been effected by second hand smoke I have to wonder why such a nice rounded number... why not 23 million and one hundred and sixty seven people have been effected by second hand smoke. Now that would lend some credibility to the report.

Btw, Illinois just elected a new governor. He was sworn in this weekend and already wants to raise the tax on a pack of smokes by another dollar. Now that is scientific fact that I would believe.

Tim
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Re: Spain has enlightened me

Postby Shlomo R » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:43 pm

Mark Lieser wrote:Daniel:
3. My wife suggested I not use the following, but what the hell: You noted earlier that growing tobacco and making cigarettes is legal, so logically, smoking should be, too. Well, I can legally have sex with my wife. I cannot legally do it in public, or wherever I want. So that argument of yours won't work!

Mark

But you ARE allowed to have sex with the windows open! :lol:
http://www.chailifeline.org/events/Bike ... rosenzweig - cycling 175 miles to raise money for summer camp for kids with cancer - doing it again in 2014!
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Re: Spain has enlightened me (A Thread about Smoking)

Postby Charlie Dawg » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:19 pm

In all the truth I do not like smoking restaurants either. Even when I used to smoke, I smoke only cigars nowadays, I did not like smoke around me during eating. But reall no smoking bars, that is just too much. I think smokers and non-smokers should have equal rights.
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