WineLovers Discussion Group

Andrew Bair wrote:

Tim York wrote:Tim - Thank you for the notes. The Fiano in the Salento wine must be Fiano Minutolo? I've never had anything from this grape before, and would be curious if you, or anyone, can fill me in on how it differs from the better-known Fiano from Campania.

Andrew, I know no more than what the Puglian presenter told me which was scarcely more than I wrote other than that terroir differences also play a part. From memory, the Fiano from Campania is less aromatic and more mineral. If Oliver is reading this, I hope he tells us more.

There were other Aostan wines on show including a Petite Arvine from the same producer, which I liked a lot, and I tried to order a few bottles. However, there is an ominous silence from the merchant about delivery.

Hi,

The two wines I chose, one a Gewurztraminer and the other a Viognier, didn't turn out to be as good as expected. After posting my notes I'll conclude with a question regarding Gewurztraminer.

Asif Viognier 2009 - From a Israeli producer, sourcing his grapes from the Negev dessert. On its own it tasted a bit off, but it was better when accompanying a mixed salad of arugula and strawberry. I should drink up whatever I have left of this vintage. Always preferring the '08 to the '09, it now seems to me that the '08 is also holding up better than the '09. 13% AbV C+

Asif Viognier 2008 - On its own, this wine offers a pleasant mix of flavors, ranging from apricot to ginger, alongside an oily texture with substantial weight, but when paired with spicy and fatty food its lack of acidity spoiled the union. This is not to say that its lack of acidity is a flaw. It is not, because Viognier typically is low in acidity, but the pairing wasn't a match made in heaven. 14.5% AbV and off dry with about 0.7% residual sugar. B

Tzora Shoresh Blanc 2009 - Made mostly of Gewurztraminer and rounded out with 15% Chardonnay, grown in the Israeli Judean hills. The nose is dusty and reminiscent of grapefruit, while the palate has more of a tropical profile, particularly pineapple. The wine is completely dry, with a streak of bitterness running through it. Until I find counter examples, I'm buying into the opinion that Gewurztraminer needs some residual sugar to offset the unwanted bitterness that pervades the palate. 13% AbV. C+

The conclusion of the previous tasting note is a good segue into my question. Do others agree with my finding, admittedly based on a very small sample, that Gewurztraminer is best when it is off-dry, possessing at least some residual sugar? To me it seems like the palate is usually a letdown following the intense aromatics, and with some sugar the palate follows more harmoniously, resulting in a palate that is more inline with the aromatics. By the way, the Israeli producer is much more successful when producing dessert wines from their Gewurztraminer than when producing dry wines, so much so, that they've decided to stop producing the dry Gewurtz, using the grapes exclusively for the dessert wines. Personally, when drinking the dessert version, I find it difficult to believe that the dry version is made of grapes from the same plot.

Best,
-> Pinchas

Pinchas L wrote:Hi,

The two wines I chose, one a Gewurztraminer and the other a Viognier, didn't turn out to be as good as expected. After posting my notes I'll conclude with a question regarding Gewurztraminer.

Asif Viognier 2009 - From a Israeli producer, sourcing his grapes from the Negev dessert. On its own it tasted a bit off, but it was better when accompanying a mixed salad of arugula and strawberry. I should drink up whatever I have left of this vintage. Always preferring the '08 to the '09, it now seems to me that the '08 is also holding up better than the '09. 13% AbV C+

Asif Viognier 2008 - On its own, this wine offers a pleasant mix of flavors, ranging from apricot to ginger, alongside an oily texture with substantial weight, but when paired with spicy and fatty food its lack of acidity spoiled the union. This is not to say that its lack of acidity is a flaw. It is not, because Viognier typically is low in acidity, but the pairing wasn't a match made in heaven. 14.5% AbV and off dry with about 0.7% residual sugar. B

Tzora Shoresh Blanc 2009 - Made mostly of Gewurztraminer and rounded out with 15% Chardonnay, grown in the Israeli Judean hills. The nose is dusty and reminiscent of grapefruit, while the palate has more of a tropical profile, particularly pineapple. The wine is completely dry, with a streak of bitterness running through it. Until I find counter examples, I'm buying into the opinion that Gewurztraminer needs some residual sugar to offset the unwanted bitterness that pervades the palate. 13% AbV. C+

The conclusion of the previous tasting note is a good segue into my question. Do others agree with my finding, admittedly based on a very small sample, that Gewurztraminer is best when it is off-dry, possessing at least some residual sugar? To me it seems like the palate is usually a letdown following the intense aromatics, and with some sugar the palate follows more harmoniously, resulting in a palate that is more inline with the aromatics. By the way, the Israeli producer is much more successful when producing dessert wines from their Gewurztraminer than when producing dry wines, so much so, that they've decided to stop producing the dry Gewurtz, using the grapes exclusively for the dessert wines. Personally, when drinking the dessert version, I find it difficult to believe that the dry version is made of grapes from the same plot.

Best,
-> Pinchas

I agree. I have two mental associations with Gewurtz:

1. Cheerleader with too much make up on.

2. Hot dog with too much mustard on it.

Pinchas L wrote:Do others agree with my finding, admittedly based on a very small sample, that Gewurztraminer is best when it is off-dry, possessing at least some residual sugar? To me it seems like the palate is usually a letdown following the intense aromatics, and with some sugar the palate follows more harmoniously, resulting in a palate that is more inline with the aromatics.

I don't agree. Although admittedly I don't drink a lot of gewurztraminer. Sure, having r.s. will make the wine easier to like and be more forgiving, but the same is true of any varietal. And ok, maybe the flavors of gewurztraminer are challenging and therefore particularly benefit from r.s. However, I've had delicious dry gewurztraminer wines (most notably Josmeyer) that I've enjoyed every bit as much as the off-dry wines, which leads me to disagree with your premise. That said, I am FAR from an expert on gewurztraminer and have no idea how many successful versions are dry vs. off-dry, even accounting for subjective variation in palate preferences.

I agree with Rahsaan, though I understand where the idea that RS is needed comes from. Most of the best have it and many of the really dry ones do push that bitterness to the fore. That said I have had a few truly dry GWTs that were excellent. Enough so I wouldn't make a blanket statement on the need for sweet.

Tim York wrote:

Andrew Bair wrote:

Tim York wrote:Tim - Thank you for the notes. The Fiano in the Salento wine must be Fiano Minutolo? I've never had anything from this grape before, and would be curious if you, or anyone, can fill me in on how it differs from the better-known Fiano from Campania.

Andrew, I know no more than what the Puglian presenter told me which was scarcely more than I wrote other than that terroir differences also play a part. From memory, the Fiano from Campania is less aromatic and more mineral. If Oliver is reading this, I hope he tells us more.

There were other Aostan wines on show including a Petite Arvine from the same producer, which I liked a lot, and I tried to order a few bottles. However, there is an ominous silence from the merchant about delivery.

Tim,

Wikipedia shows Minutolo as a synonym for Fiano, I don't know if there is more than one type of Fiano. I'll look it up in Jancis's new tome when I have the energy to go out to the office and lift it off the desk.

Fiano from Campania is usually semi-aromatic (I often am reminded of Chenin Blanc), and very minerally. It might be my favorite Italian white variety, although there aren't that many really good producers.

Jancis says that there is a genetically distinct grape called Fiano grown in Puglia, and there is talk of having it registered as 'Minutolo.' I had no idea.

There are also two entirely separate kinds of Falanghina, the book says, I had no idea about that either. This book is geek heaven.

Oliver McCrum wrote:Jancis says that there is a genetically distinct grape called Fiano grown in Puglia, and there is talk of having it registered as 'Minutolo.' I had no idea.

There are also two entirely separate kinds of Falanghina, the book says, I had no idea about that either. This book is geek heaven.

Thank you for the research, Oliver. No idea here about two Falanghinas, either. I'm still waiting to see if I can find a copy of Jancis' book for a bit less than what I'm seeing on the Amazon Marketplace right now.

Andrew Bair wrote:

Oliver McCrum wrote:Jancis says that there is a genetically distinct grape called Fiano grown in Puglia, and there is talk of having it registered as 'Minutolo.' I had no idea.

There are also two entirely separate kinds of Falanghina, the book says, I had no idea about that either. This book is geek heaven.

Thank you for the research, Oliver. No idea here about two Falanghinas, either. I'm still waiting to see if I can find a copy of Jancis' book for a bit less than what I'm seeing on the Amazon Marketplace right now.

My thanks, too, Oliver.