For all the German wine wanna-bes, this is very educational!!

I have from time to time mentioned the good stuff on Chris Kissick`s website over in the UK. He is updating his German sites and has just posted some very interesting facts on levels of sweetness, regions and what the heck the A.P number means. There is a ton of info here.

http://www.thewinedoctor.com/regionalgu ... atap.shtml

This is all useful stuff if new to the region!!

I notice that the site is updated to the Saar now.

Bob! The Wine Doctor rocks! I think he of all major wine writers (though I guess he isn't well known outside of UK?) is closest to my tastes. He does seem to appreciate ripeness more than I do, but otherwise I think he mirrors my tastes quite far. I find his writing and tasting notes articulate and useful. His is one of the few wine sites (apart from fora) that I peruse almost daily.

I wonder, now with Parker having a counterpoint voice in Neal Martin, would HRH Jancis take up a counterpoint in Chris?

-O-

You know what, she could do a lot worse.
Chris is a doctor no? Where does he find the time?

Bob,

Here is something interesting that I don't think he mentions...

A wine must have a certain must weight to qualify as Kabinett, Spatlese, Auslese, etc. But the minimum levels of sugar in the juice are NOT THE SAME for all regions in Germany. So, for instance, a lower level of sweetness in the unfermented juice is required for a Kabinett in the Mosel, Saar, and Ruwer compared to what is required in the Rheingau, Rheinpfalz, and Rheinhessen. In fact, a Mosel has to be almost at a Spatlese level (for the Mosel) to qualify as a Kabinett, if it had been a Rhine wine!

Of course, how much sugar remains in the wine after fermentation is not covered in the regulations, so wines can vary in their final sweetness or dryness depending on the producer's decisons! Though resulting alcohol level is often a clue, at least when comparing wines from similar regions.

The designated must weights for each region appears to have been based on traditional styles. So those Rheingau Kabinetts that seem a bit bigger than their Mosel counterparts really ARE! ...Paul

OK, Chris has continued to update his German site, now into the Ruwer.

http://www.thewinedoctor.com/regionalgu ... uwer.shtml

[David M. Bueker]

One thing in his "pradiakt" section really bugs the heck out of me. He takes a shot at the use of sussreserve, which is permitted for both QbA and QmP wines, saying that "there is always an opportunity for blatant manipulation at some point."

We the other way that the Germans generally make the fabulous off-dry wines for which tye are well known is stopping fermentation. Now is that manipulation? Of course it is. Not many German wines conveniently stop themselves with perfect acid/sugar balance. Some correction is required, either by intervening in the fermentation process or by adding sussreserve.

While I will grant that oceans of swill have been made with sussreserve, there have also been countless great wines made by that technique. Good sussreserve (e.g. Riesling sussreserve, and especially from the same site as the base wine) is a good and useful tool in the winemakers arsenal. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater in the name of purist dogma.

OK, Chris has continued to update his German site, now into the Ruwer.

http://www.thewinedoctor.com/regionalgu ... uwer.shtml

Just checked in, Chris has started on the Mosel. Click on Mosel Pt 1.

One thing in his "pradiakt" section really bugs the heck out of me. He takes a shot at the use of sussreserve, which is permitted for both QbA and QmP wines, saying that "there is always an opportunity for blatant manipulation at some point."

We the other way that the Germans generally make the fabulous off-dry wines for which tye are well known is stopping fermentation. Now is that manipulation? Of course it is. Not many German wines conveniently stop themselves with perfect acid/sugar balance. Some correction is required, either by intervening in the fermentation process or by adding sussreserve.

While I will grant that oceans of swill have been made with sussreserve, there have also been countless great wines made by that technique. Good sussreserve (e.g. Riesling sussreserve, and especially from the same site as the base wine) is a good and useful tool in the winemakers arsenal. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater in the name of purist dogma.

You go, guy!

Good rant, dude.

I love the people who selectively choose their preferred good manipulation and bad manipulation.

We've had these arguments before, ad infinitum, on this board and others, and likely will again, but it remains that winemaking, in and of itself, is manipulation. Thus, the only argument that remains is at what level and at what point do you ascribe positives and negatives?

Let's start with my favorite premise, as quote by a biodynamic farmer I know: "Farming [meaning specifically viticulture] is an unnatural act."

That's where the manipulation begins; everything else follows.

To isolate sussreserve as "bad" and to avoid the mention of arrested fermentation, both of which are commonly accepted and approved practices, is (as you point out, David) foolish. I recall in the early years of the experiments to create the trocken and halb-trocken wines, some absolutely egregious, horrible, horrible mockeries of Riesling were foisted on the poor unsuspecting wine public. And ocasionally still are.

"Farming [meaning specifically viticulture] is an unnatural act."

Great quote! And a very good point made regarding the fact that wine is a product made by humans, not nature.


Mike

Let's start with my favorite premise, as quote by a biodynamic farmer I know: "Farming [meaning specifically viticulture] is an unnatural act."

And I never did understand why humans bothered with farming in the first place. Hunting & gathering was so much easier and less time consuming also...

Bob, many thanks for highlighting the recent additions to my site, I had no idea you were such a publicist for thewinedoctor.com! Thanks indeed.

One thing in his "pradiakt" section really bugs the heck out of me. He takes a shot at the use of sussreserve, which is permitted for both QbA and QmP wines, saying that "there is always an opportunity for blatant manipulation at some point."

We the other way that the Germans generally make the fabulous off-dry wines for which tye are well known is stopping fermentation. Now is that manipulation? Of course it is. Not many German wines conveniently stop themselves with perfect acid/sugar balance. Some correction is required, either by intervening in the fermentation process or by adding sussreserve.

David, I understand your opinion, and have sympathy with it. But I think you are overinterpreting the article for the sake of your own entirely reasonable preconceptions. I agree with you entirely that artificial arrest of fermentation using sulphur, or whatever means, is manipulation, and would concur that it is just as blatant as sussreserve. But can I just remind you that nowhere do I state the opposite? Yes I picked out sussreserve, but this is an important point as it is a practice that clearly distinguishes between QbA and QmP, and is almost unique to German wine (the addition of the dosage in Champagne being one similar practice, an analogy I rather enjoy), and thus it is worthy of mention. This is not an article that aims to deal with winemaking in its entirety; it does not address artificial cessation of fermentation, but nor does it look at cryo-extraction, plastic sheeting over berries to foster eiswein and botrytis, reserve osmosis or any other 'manipulative' technique that might be used in winemaking, including the production of a sweet wine.

I love the people who selectively choose their preferred good manipulation and bad manipulation......To isolate sussreserve as "bad" and to avoid the mention of arrested fermentation, both of which are commonly accepted and approved practices, is (as you point out, David) foolish.

I find the idea of 'good' and 'bad' manipulation rather amusing; manipulation is manipulation, whether you agree with the practice or not doesn't make it 'good' or 'bad'. The addition of sussreserve is, however, certainly blatant manipulation (would you disagree?) but I think you perhaps misinterpret blatant to suit your argument?

I agree with your comment that to discuss manipulation using sussreserve and not arrested fermentation is indeed foolish....if this were an article aiming to cover winemaking/manipulation in depth. But it isn't, clearly; they are guides to German wine, which mentions sussreserve as little more than an aside. Yes, I take a potshot at it. Good for me! The practice is certainly questionable and up for debate, whether or not you agree with it. There is no rule, however, that says I have to mete out some mention or criticism, good or bad, of other winemaking practices at the same time.

Thanks for the opportunity to debate; your comments are stimulating and give food for thought. I think you, like David, have overinterpreted (in a 'foolish' manner?), but I've certainly enjoyed reading your posts and appreciate your obvious knowledge.

Best regards

Chris

Just to mention that Mosel Part 2 has just been added. Lots of great info as usual. Usual link folks.