WineLovers Discussion Group

Jim may have posted his trip reports here, but I spent a fascinating hour reading his blog and looking at the great pictures.

The essay entitled Walking the Vines at Château Pavie is particularly interesting. I had no idea the grapes were so close to being raisins at harvest time.

Jim asks an important question: "But, can Pavie be considered a great Bordeaux wine?"

Beautifully done, Jim, and thank you very much.

Regards, Bob

Wow, raisins indeed. A picture is worth a thousand words here. Jim's blog raises some interesting questions. Do you think that those bunches of unhealthy looking, over ripe grapes in the photos are really what Ch. Pavie is intentionally seeking as the desired material to make their wine? This is hard for me to believe. Then again, I've never tried the wine.

Bob, is Franklin Lakes, NJ anywhere near Kinnelon or Mountain Lakes, NJ? I am going to be there in mid November for some family business.

Pavie is the wine Jancis Robinson and Parker had a row over some years back, no?

cheers,
al

I recently got a double blind taste of the 1998. I actually thought it a decent wine, still recognisably Bordeaux (rather than New World). I understand that the 1998 is restrained compared to some more recent releases, and to some extent I still found it palatable (not enough to go out and buy some though ). From the pictures it looks like I shouldn't try the more recent vintages...

Otto Nieminen wrote:I recently got a double blind taste of the 1998. I actually thought it a decent wine, still recognisably Bordeaux (rather than New World). I understand that the 1998 is restrained compared to some more recent releases, and to some extent I still found it palatable (not enough to go out and buy some though ). From the pictures it looks like I shouldn't try the more recent vintages...

Otto,
Earlier this year I had the opportunity to taste a small pour of the 2000 Pavie...I believe that is the same wine that Jancis and RMP got into their pissing contest about. A small pour was all I wanted. Over-extracted, overoaked and spoofulated to the maximum. Unbalanced. I'd be tempted to chalk this up as a wine that perhaps didn't appeal to my personal tastes, but of the 10 or so experienced tasters in the group, not a single person had anything favorable to say about the wine.
Redwinger

We were very pleased this summer with the 1988 vintage.

Medium red color, deep hue, no bricking apparent, lovely aroma of fruit and spice, very good fruit, spice and earth tastes, well developed and mild tannins, very light acidity, wonderful balance, medium mouth feel, long, lingering finish with a tannic finish on the tongue, quite a pleasant wine. Janet loved the aroma and the taste. 4*.

It seemed very Bordeaux-like to both of us.

Bill, thanks for that note. It seems I should avoid the later wines.

Bob, the "new" style of Pavie has only come about in 1998. I believe Perse got the property in 1997 and made a selection of the barrels to be used in that year, but '98 was the first year that was made in the spoofulated style. As I said the '98 is a fair representative, not too much over-the-top if you don't mind the wine to taste obviously modern.

But I did prefer the style as it was made in the '80s. I think that style was typical St-Em to me.

Thanks, Otto. I guess I forgot that he bought the property so recently. Doesn't sound like I would like the more recent vintages.

We recently had the '01 Pavie... one of the best Bordeaux I have had the pleasure of drinking.

Bob,

Thanks for posting the link. The site is my attempt at creating a journal that I can look back on years from now to recount my wine travels and tastings. I'm not good with the pen and paper thing -- but, it's damn hard to loose the whole internet...

If anyone is interested, I am working on summarizing experiences from the Grand Jury European tastings of 2003 Bordeaux and the 1995 tasting comparing Napa and Bordeaux that's now being referred to as, 'The Judgement at Sauternes'. I should have one round up today if I get the time...

Cheers,
Jim

As I mentioned, Jim, I loved your site. Folks on Jancis Robinson's site mentioned it, and I really had fun reading through your wine adventures.

I'll look for new episodes as they appear.

Regards, Bob

Thanks Bob. I've spent much of the morning cleaning up my journal entry around The Judgement at Sauternes -- a tasting with the Grand Jury European (with current / former WLDG luminary Victor de la Serna) pitting the best 1995 Bordeaux against the best 1995s from Napa Valley. It was a great experience and I'll be happy to post it here when I am done if Robin doesn't mind...

Jim

Marc D wrote:Wow, raisins indeed. A picture is worth a thousand words here. Jim's blog raises some interesting questions. Do you think that those bunches of unhealthy looking, over ripe grapes in the photos are really what Ch. Pavie is intentionally seeking as the desired material to make their wine? This is hard for me to believe. Then again, I've never tried the wine.

Bob, is Franklin Lakes, NJ anywhere near Kinnelon or Mountain Lakes, NJ? I am going to be there in mid November for some family business.

In my trips around France, I have never seen red wine grapes like that! Greece yes, but the Pavie photos need some following up. Cannot understand the reasoning there at all.

Great report and Jim is now being 'attacked' by sycophants 1 and 2 at the eRP web site for his opinion on 03 Pavie. Most inane retort by one of them was in response to Jim's pointing out that they themselves scored the 03 Pavie low in a blind tasting. The retort, get this:

the multiple hour decanting did not help the wine (03 Pavie) and only caused it to close up.

Wow....streeeeeeetching!!!

Oh my gosh -- that's amazing!

Almost worthy of becoming a WINE QUOTE.

Naw ... too irrelevant. :-)

Let me qualify this by saying I have never had the 2003 Pavie, BUT to me great wines never need excuses, only bad tasters....

Thise grape pictures were intriguing on Jim's site. I don't even think Amerone grapes even begin to look like that until after harvest and left to dry.

JJBiancamano wrote:Great report and Jim is now being 'attacked' by sycophants 1 and 2 at the eRP web site for his opinion on 03 Pavie

It's strange that one has to defend the wine in such a way. Isn't it enough to say one likes or dislikes and that's the end of it? Interboard carping I guess isn't good manners, but I have to agree that the outbursts by the couple vocal people on "that" site were odd: we are talking of personal preferences after all. And no, I don't dare to say that on "that" site - I'll be shot to pieces, lol!!

But I did also wonder, where the raisined grapes part of what is used for the wine or were they discarded?

-O-

The only Pavie I have had even a taste of was the 2000 which above is described as overextracted, overoaked and spoofulated. I was rating the wines in the tasting on the 20-point UC-Davis scale and under that method where I judged aroma, color, clarity, finish, etc. separately it came out somewhere in the middle of the pack. Yet, as an overall package, it was my top wine of the tasting. I can't really explain it but the whole seemed better than the parts. However, I think I prefer the 2000 Pavie-Maquin which I had in a different tasting, also the 2000 Angelus. The 2000 Pavie was definely a strange bird (or Bordeaux) but I found it somewhat attractive. (I like Amarones too if that has any bearing on this).