WineLovers Discussion Group

OW Holmes wrote:Why is it this topic generates such heat?
Every time?
How about some new topics:
Cabernet is better than Pinot Noir!
Left Bank Bordeaux is better than Right Bank.
Monet is better than Van Gogh.
Australian Shiraz sucks as compared to French Syrah.
WLDG is better than other boards. Ah HA! We've got a winner. At least here.

Probably because nearly all of these are matters of opinion. Opinion arguments have no satisfactory conclusion. Whether corks or screwcaps are better seals for winebottles ought to be establishable as a fact - or at least nearer to fact than Cab vs Pinot.

It's the parading of opinion as fact that generates the heat in the screwcap/cork discussions...
cheers,
Graeme

Graeme Gee wrote:
It's the parading of opinion as fact that generates the heat in the screwcap/cork discussions...
cheers,
Graeme

Graeme,

Right on. A belief system based on Ill-informed opinion or ideology is generally impervious to facts.

And then there's that other dynamic: if repeated enough, a lie becomes the truth.

I agree. However, it seems that the one overriding and undeniable fact is that screw caps cannot contribute to TCA taint. The effect of screw caps on aging is certainly open to opinion.

Sam, those are facts; they carry no weight

Sam Platt wrote:I agree. However, it seems that the one overriding and undeniable fact is that screw caps cannot contribute to TCA taint. The effect of screw caps on aging is certainly open to opinion.

For now, perhaps, although that article in that other thread seems pretty conclusive. I'd still like to see the French results, though.

It's also true that matters of opinion generate the greatest amount of heat in discussion. Religion, politics, corks, whatever. When things become matters of fact rather than matters of opinion, arguments die down. After all, how can one rationally argue over facts?

Isaac wrote:

Sam Platt wrote:I agree. However, it seems that the one overriding and undeniable fact is that screw caps cannot contribute to TCA taint. The effect of screw caps on aging is certainly open to opinion.

For now, perhaps, although that article in that other thread seems pretty conclusive. I'd still like to see the French results, though.

It's also true that matters of opinion generate the greatest amount of heat in discussion. Religion, politics, corks, whatever. When things become matters of fact rather than matters of opinion, arguments die down. After all, how can one rationally argue over facts?

And wouldn't it be a dull old world if we all had the same opinions, and all liked drinking the same wine....

Neil Courtney wrote:And wouldn't it be a dull old world if we all had the same opinions, and all liked drinking the same wine....

It would, but I'd prefer opinions be based at least partly informed by facts and reason. Far too often, they are completely emotional, as are the arguments they engender.

Fortunately, that doesn't seem to happen here.

Isaac wrote:

Neil Courtney wrote:And wouldn't it be a dull old world if we all had the same opinions, and all liked drinking the same wine....

It would, but I'd prefer opinions be based at least partly informed by facts and reason. Far too often, they are completely emotional, as are the arguments they engender.

Fortunately, that doesn't seem to happen here.

You think so Isaac? Emotions can run fairly high sometimes, particularly on the issue of screw caps.

It's true that one cannot argue with facts, but it's also true that people with a strong belief system or ideology don't want facts, they want validation, which of course precipitates an argument as soon as they come up against someone who presents facts.

Some great insights into why this topic causes heat. I think you've called it correctly.

Sam Platt wrote:Tim,

My interest in screw caps is purely selfish. The fact is that I have never had a corked wine served to me under screwcap. The issue hit home after I spent 20 minutes arguing with an Italian waiter over whether, or not a wine was corked. A screw cap would have saved my time, the waiter's time, and perserved my good humor. I will even concede (though I am unconvinced) the "age worthy wine" argument. However, of my 142 bottle inventory I have approximately 18 bottles that I plan to hold for any period of time. The rest will be consumed within a year, or less. I have no real interest in ceremony, only in good tasting wine. Screwcap gives me the best opportunity to open a wine that is well preserved. I care not if I look like your average "Night Train" drinker as long as my Valpolicella doesn't taste like fermented dishwater.

Well, more power to ya, Sam.

I, too, am interested in good tasting wine, but I reject straight out of hand this whole notion that screw caps are better upon the basis of so little risk. Jenise posted an article expressing a 2% loss due to TCA with screw caps as compared to 4% under cork. I honestly believe folks are over focused on that point and do not allow themselves to see the big picture. A 96-98% success rate is phenomenal...in any business.

I seriously do not see a necessity for change based on such an insignificant number. I really don't.

As I have stated before there is much more to the dining experience than mere eating and drinking. And efficiency isn't it.

Thomas wrote:It's true that one cannot argue with facts, but it's also true that people with a strong belief system or ideology don't want facts, they want validation, which of course precipitates an argument as soon as they come up against someone who presents facts.

Hm.

I would argue that "facts" can be tweaked in order to reflect whatever ever you want to prove, my friend.

Case in point: Is it a fact the glass is half full or is it a fact the glass is half empty? **
























**Answer: It all depends on if you are pouring or you are drinking.

TimMc wrote:A 96-98% success rate is phenomenal...in any business.

In the medical and electronics industries failure rates are targeted in single digit "part per million" (PPM). In others words a 99.9999% success rate is expected. A 96-98% (20,000 - 40,000 PPM loss) success rate is abysmal.

Tim:

I passed through a wine aisle while shopping for groceries today.

Thought you'd like to know you an cross a few more wines off your list of drinkables because they've gone over to screwcaps.

Ferrari-Carano
Silverado
Hogue
Marques de Caceres

The wine of the week in the local paper was a Sauvignon Republic SB. They do three versions of SB, a Russian River Valley, a New Zealand, and a South Africa. They put their wines exclusively in screwcap.


I'll keep you updated so you can stay current. Just a local community service.

Oh, one other thing: in Decanter magazine they quoted the World Wildlife Fund as predicting that by 2015 they expect 95% of wines to be sealed by screwcaps. (Of course, I do have to say that the WWF is a big proponent of natural cork and that announcement might be a scare tactic---might have something to do with the fact that the cork producers contribute lots of funds to the WWF, but that might just be me being cynical.)

Some people might find this article interesting;
http://www.rowlandcellars.com/hot_tca.html

Salute

Victorwine wrote:Some people might find this article interesting;
http://www.rowlandcellars.com/hot_tca.html

Wow. Let me just say that regardless of your opinion on closures, that article lowers the bar in the competent writing sweepstakes! Raises some questions re logic, too. Anyone have knowledge of particulars of the 1 in 1400 study?

Dale Williams wrote:

Victorwine wrote:Some people might find this article interesting;
http://www.rowlandcellars.com/hot_tca.html

Wow. Let me just say that regardless of your opinion on closures, that article lowers the bar in the competent writing sweepstakes! Raises some questions re logic, too. Anyone have knowledge of particulars of the 1 in 1400 study?

Dale, you are correct. This may be the stupidest article on this subject I have ever read. I suggest that we consider the source. Geez! It's pathetic.

Sam Platt wrote:

TimMc wrote:A 96-98% success rate is phenomenal...in any business.

In the medical and electronics industries failure rates are targeted in single digit "part per million" (PPM). In others words a 99.9999% success rate is expected. A 96-98% (20,000 - 40,000 PPM loss) success rate is abysmal.

[heaviest of sighs]

I sincerely hope you do not equate screw caps with life and death situations now, do you?

I agree.

Death is a bad thing.



But unless you extremely over imbibe....this is not anywhere CLOSE to the issue of screw caps.

Hoke wrote:Tim:

I passed through a wine aisle while shopping for groceries today.

Thought you'd like to know you an cross a few more wines off your list of drinkables because they've gone over to screwcaps.

Ferrari-Carano
Silverado
Hogue
Marques de Caceres

The wine of the week in the local paper was a Sauvignon Republic SB. They do three versions of SB, a Russian River Valley, a New Zealand, and a South Africa. They put their wines exclusively in screwcap.


I'll keep you updated so you can stay current. Just a local community service.

Oh, one other thing: in Decanter magazine they quoted the World Wildlife Fund as predicting that by 2015 they expect 95% of wines to be sealed by screwcaps. (Of course, I do have to say that the WWF is a big proponent of natural cork and that announcement might be a scare tactic---might have something to do with the fact that the cork producers contribute lots of funds to the WWF, but that might just be me being cynical.)

Drop in the bucket, Hoke.

FOUR wineries...?


You simply just cannot be serious in your objection.

TimMc wrote:I sincerely hope you do not equate screw caps with life and death situations now, do you?

I agree.

Death is a bad thing.

But unless you extremely over imbibe....this is not anywhere CLOSE to the issue of screw caps.

Tim, Missing the point on purpose? "A 96-98% success rate is phenomenal...in any business." Your quote, not mine. If the issue is minor why not give just in to the screw cap. Had a wonderful set of screw capped NZ SB's tonight. No TCA in sight. The mood was not dampend in the slightest, sans uncorking.

Sam Platt wrote:

TimMc wrote:I sincerely hope you do not equate screw caps with life and death situations now, do you?

I agree.

Death is a bad thing.

But unless you extremely over imbibe....this is not anywhere CLOSE to the issue of screw caps.

Tim, Missing the point on purpose? "A 96-98% success rate is phenomenal...in any business." Your quote, not mine. If the issue is minor why not give just in to the screw cap. Had a wonderful set of screw capped NZ SB's tonight. No TCA in sight. The mood was not dampend in the slightest, sans uncorking.

You, apparently, do not live in an agricultural area or make your living in the wholesale/retail/service provider business.


Just a guess.


As an educator...I'd be doing hand stands if my kids turned in 98% of the assignments I gave them. Trust me.


Apples and oranges, my friend.

The reason why I posted my last post here was to drive the point that while the screw cap and other alternative enclosures that do not contribute to TCA taint, they do not guarantee (100%) that the wine will be free from any TCA taint.

Salute

Neil Courtney wrote:You think so Isaac? Emotions can run fairly high sometimes, particularly on the issue of screw caps.

True, but for the most part, we keep it civil.

TimMc wrote:Case in point: Is it a fact the glass is half full or is it a fact the glass is half empty? **

**Answer: It all depends on if you are pouring or you are drinking.

The engineering answer is that its twice as big as it needs to be.

My position on this issue is that we don't yet have all of the facts, so it's best to keep an open mind. However, what facts we do have lead me to the provisional position that screwcaps are superior in the short and medium term, and may well be superior in the long term as well. As always, new data can change everything.