Wine Enthusiasts! Student needs your input PLEASE!

What Rogov said.

To that I'd add that individual opinions are of value when we are familiar with the critic or (individual) judge and have calibrated our tastes with his or hers; e.g., the well known Parker's praise for a long, strong finish may turn me on but the same (famously quercophilic) critic's praise for "toasty oak" tends to turn me off. It's not that we don't like critics or judges, it's that there is relatively little to learn from unfamiliar or collective critics or judges and their points or medals.

[David M. Bueker]

Just took the survey, and I have to say that it's about as badly designed as possible. You have confounded variables in such a way that the data will be completely meaningless. I don't doubt that much of that is program driven, but that just reinforces that the population on this site (or really any wine discussion board) is not the target audience for the survey. We are much more passionate and have much more knowledge about wine than any marketeers, so will not be swayed by the labels/awards/saavy price point stuff.

So in retrospect, perhaps not a terrible survey so much as a mismatch of survey versus targeting this audience.

And FYI - I hate Sauvignon Blanc and barely tolerate Merlot.

Just took the survey, and I have to say that it's about as badly designed as possible. You have confounded variables in such a way that the data will be completely meaningless. I don't doubt that much of that is program driven, but that just reinforces that the population on this site (or really any wine discussion board) is not the target audience for the survey. We are much more passionate and have much more knowledge about wine than any marketeers, so will not be swayed by the labels/awards/saavy price point stuff.

So in retrospect, perhaps not a terrible survey so much as a mismatch of survey versus targeting this audience.

And FYI - I hate Sauvignon Blanc and barely tolerate Merlot.

David, you are making big assumptions saying that 'we' are universally a 'knowledgeable' bunch. There are some (many?) who are newbies who know very little, maybe in particular the many lurkers that there are now reading this thread and saying "These guys are so much more knowledgeable than I am, so I will go away".

re survey's in general. i make a few points on my frequent flyer program by submitting to an occassional survey. its shocking how many are really incompetant. one asked if i drank coffee and then asked to pick among the places that i get it - starbucks, etc. never occurred to them that i would make it myself! another assumed that people do all or most of their shopping at 'mall type' places. and often the reason i do something is not one of the choices. ready to give up surveys forever.

to Rogov and others:
i thought it would be obvious that my restaurant wine list example was intended to be one where you had gotten medal info somehow and had no other info. many restaurants don't have sommeliers - or they are off for the night or whatever; and maybe one could call a friends sometimes - or use a handheld device to surf the net for more info - but the point is that if those medals were the only info you had and could get, it would be irrational not to be directed by that info. And, if one did have more info, the medal info would still need to be considered along with that other info.

i'm not sure what 'statistical' problems wine competitions have, Rogov. None that i can find in the ones i do or would do. I've heard that some give a certain percentage of top scoring wines gold, and another percentage silver, etc.; but would never judge at such a competition. i've heard that some ask the judges for scores and then secretly convert them into medals. wouldn't judge at that one either. the common way in the US is for about 4 experienced people to come to a consensus about the merit of each wine; and that concensus is the medal the wine gets - period( unless wines are tasted by more than one panel as a check and balance sort of thing). the details of reaching a consensus may be said to have statistical elements; but basically the details have to be such that each judge can live with the results whichever side they happen to be on a the moment - so statistics as fairness.

David, Hi.....

I understood your question perfectly. My problem is that I think so little of competitions and the medals they award that in the case of two wines, both from unknown producers, both of the same variety or blend, both from the same vintage and both from the same region, that if no other source of information was available, I would simply flip a mental coin to decide on which "to go with".

As to my statistical and other objections to competitions, I have re-posted a several year old article on my side of the forum at viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27499 . In order to place this thread back on track, I most heartily invite comments, questions, disagreements and objections on that thread.

Best
Rogov

[David M. Bueker]

I honestly don't believe the legend of the delicate newbies, but if I were to look at the survey in a different light I think the questions would confound someone who is new or relatively new to wine, thus making it an even worse survey.

I tried to start the survey (lied about my income) but I found it too much hard work and did not finish. I think I can honestly say that labels don't do much for me, one way or another and I am not impressed much with prizes. I have come to the point in life after 30+ years of wine drinklng, that I buy wines I haven't tried before based on recommendations of people I know, producers I have experience with, importers who have good track record with me in the past, and an occaisonal review. The label simply doesn't do it. What I do like on a label is some real information as opposed to advertising hype. The picture or lack thereof is meaningless. I ignore tasting notes on a label because I have never seen a producer say anything on their label other than the wine is wonderful... in lots of words. I did try but I couldn't in good faith say that the label, awards or no, would make any difference, let alone quantify how much difference in numbers it would make.

Sorry,
Glenn

two things:
1. i hope no one is saying that if they were forced to pick wines from a wine list say - and two wines were the same price - and one of them received a gold medal at a competition and the other a bronze - that you would not use this info to help make a choice..

I would not use that info to help make a choice. I essentially regard the prizes as meaningless noise and often don't even notice the little stickers. If two wines were the same price and I did not know how to choose I would ask the shop owner/sommelier for advice. Otherwise I would choose something else.

I now see Rogov answered the same thing above. Smart man!

David, Hi.....

I understood your question perfectly. My problem is that I think so little of competitions and the medals they award that in the case of two wines, both from unknown producers, both of the same variety or blend, both from the same vintage and both from the same region, that if no other source of information was available, I would simply flip a mental coin to decide on which "to go with".

Agreed!

And FYI - I hate Sauvignon Blanc and barely tolerate Merlot.

That was another of my big complaints about the survey. I clicked 0 for almost all the wines because I don't buy those types of wines (Merlot, non German and Austrian riesling, etc). But the computer won't be able to get at that source of my decision because it didn't have any questions about the importance of region and grape for my purchasing decisions.

And FYI - I hate Sauvignon Blanc and barely tolerate Merlot.

That was another of my big complaints about the survey. I clicked 0 for almost all the wines because I don't buy those types of wines (Merlot, non German and Austrian riesling, etc). But the computer won't be able to get at that source of my decision because it didn't have any questions about the importance of region and grape for my purchasing decisions.

Exactly my feeling as well, though maybe that response from people on a wine board is useful information in itself in a general sort of way.

John

I’m an amateur winemaker and I enter quite a few amateur wine competitions. Like commercial wine competitions they are all set up differently. Commercial wine competitions have their own entrant requirements (who could enter, production and distribution requirements); their own scoring guidelines (wines are awarded medals on their merit or the “rank and pushed” method is used. David or Daniel is this method used in commercial competitions?); etc, and the people organizing the event determine how it is to be run. These are competitions and like any competition you’re going to have “winners” and “losers” (the survival and reputation of the competition depends upon this). Depending upon how narrow or wide the “playing field” is will be a deciding factor if the wine is awarded a medal or not. (Just think of the MLB (Major League Baseball) or the NFL (National Football League) standings. A first place National League Division team could be a third place National League team and 7th place MLB team). If I enter a local competition, county, state, national, or international competition, why should I think if I win a gold medal in one competition I’m guaranteed to win a gold medal (or even get a medal) in another? There is no such thing as a “great” wine only a “great” bottle of wine.

Salute

I don't want to keep this thread going forever, but this afternoon I was rummaging around in my wine cellar and I saw that I do have one wine -- out of 1,000+ bottles -- that sports a prize, a Prix des Finalies, circled in gold. The wine, though, is a 2007 Domaine de la Grange Clos des Allees Vielles Vignes Muscadet Sevre & Maine. The exception proves the rule. I bought five bottles of it at a merchant's tasting a few months ago at only $12.45, and the Muscadet people probably feel they still have something to prove, having had a reputation until recent years for producing a sea of plonk.

What on the label would make me want to buy the wine if I hadn't tasted it? The Louis/Dressner back label. The reputation of good importers like this one sells far more wine than medals do.

I like that last point....The reputation of good importers like this one sells far more wine than medals do.
I was looking around the store and came across some Italian wines importer by Empson. I know he and his wife spend a lot of time in Italy and I have never had a dud from this company. Plus he does not dictate "do this try that" like that Grazia fellow whose imported wines all have an "international" streak.

Good night!

Thumbing through a back issue (August/September) of "Winomagazine," a publication focusing on Washington State wineries, I find a story focusing on recently established wineries in WallaWalla. A throwaway line from the story: "Try to find a wine that has NOT won a prestigious award of some kind. Betcha can't." With only slight exageration, the implication is that Walla Walla's young, relatively unknown wineries enter all their wines in competitions and all win some sort of award. The word "prestigious" is intended as ironic, to signify that the awards are meaningless.