Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker
Paul Winalski
Wok Wielder
8044
Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:16 pm
Merrimack, New Hampshire
michael dietrich
Ultra geek
246
Wed May 10, 2006 5:09 pm
West Linn, Oregon
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
Ryan Maderak wrote:I guess when it comes down to it, there are actually only two relevant questions for evaluating a wine: (1) did you like it or not, and (2) do you feel it was worth what you paid for it.
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
Daniel Rogov wrote:One additional note – agreed in full that the difference between a score of 88 and 89 is relatively insignificant. The difference, however between a wine scoring 89 and one scoring 90 points is considerable, and that because the two wines fall into two quality categories – the first being excellent and highly recommended, the second being exceptional in every way.
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
Daniel Rogov wrote:Best and Truly Hoping this Argument Goes to Bed for Another Year or Two now
Rogov
Ian Sutton wrote:Agreed, and when assessing critic's (or other's) ratings of a wine, it perhaps comes down to:
1) Did they like it (or not)?
2) Why did they like it (or not)?
3) Do I think I might like it (based on the detail of their note & score)?
4) Does the price appeal based on the above?
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
Daniel Rogov wrote:Did they taste it with 100 other wines at a swish-and-spit or did they spend some time with the wine, maybe even try it with food?
Many professionals are as capable of tasting 100 wines at what you call a "swish-and-spit" session as they are in sitting down to taste a mere 10-12 wines. That, in part, are what professionalism and experience are all about.
Do they use all the points of their 100-point scale or really just a few?
As is known, the 100 point scale is actually a 50 point scale starting at 50. Much the same as grades in the USA.
Ryan Maderak wrote:It might be less confusing to omit the x-axis labels, and simply put manual labels on each "tranche." Plotting score (Y) versus price (X) would contain all the information in your plot, but organized as to also demonstrate the global trend.
All of that aside, I'm with Rogov. Nobody ever said that price was supposed to correlate with score.
A quality-scale rating should be given without regard to price. If you want to use a value for money scale, that's a different matter. But the greatest wines in the world will always do poorly on such a scale.
Your assertion that the poor correlation of score with price invalidates the scoring system is based on premises that either aren't necessarily true, or have been explicitly declared not to be true, i.e., irrelevant to the methodology.
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
…is not the same as giving the wine time to breathe, seeing how well it works with other flavors, not fatiguing one's palate so that only the boldest/woodiest stand out, etc.
School grades are not relevant to the discussion; that is merely another aspect of why the "100 point scale" seems familiar.
Daniel Rogov wrote:(a) With regard to the time element: Not at all a problem in our own tasting rooms when flights of wine can simply be moved to the back of the table with the idea of returning to them in 1, 2 or 3 hours in order to follow their development. <snip> When I attend such events it is never to make full and formal tasting notes but just to gain impressions or impressions anew. I know of no critic who posts tasting notes based on a walk-about sip and spit.
(b) With re tasting wine with food: <snip> Food, in fact, will detract from one's ability to evaluate and analyze a wine. <snip> [O]ne would have to match every wine with six-eight different dishes in order to know which match is "best".
(c) With re palate fatigue: <snip>
(d) As to the boldest wines standing out as a result of over-tasting, depends on the critic, n'est-ce-pas vrai? For some it may be the most gentle that stand out.
School grades are not relevant to the discussion; that is merely another aspect of why the "100 point scale" seems familiar.
On this one we disagree diametrically.
Ryan wrote that "nobody ever said that price was supposed to correlate with score" and you responded that "that sounds naïve to me". Not at all naïve for when tasting blind the critic has no idea whether the wine in glass numbered 9Alpha cost US$18.00 or 280. Wines should be (oyez, in my opinion, must be) analyzed and evalued without any knowledge whatever of price.
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
Daniel Rogov wrote:On this one we disagree diametrically. The 100 point scale was devised precisely because it correlated with school grades in the United States. Simply stated it was felt that using that scale would be familiar and not at all threatening because of that earlier knowledge. On the other hand, the 20 point scale, which is largely European at its source, was devised because European schools use a grading system based on 20 and not 100 points.
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
2558
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Norwich, UK
Daniel Rogov wrote:(d) As to the boldest wines standing out as a result of over-tasting, depends on the critic, n'est-ce-pas vrai? For some it may be the most gentle that stand out.
Daniel Rogov
Resident Curmudgeon
0
Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am
Tel Aviv, Israel
If no one posts notes on a sip'n'spit, then the point is to make notes about which wines deserve closer attention. Yes? So, whether it is this (non-)note or the follow-up note, the prejudice is still baked in. Yes?
"Food" does not need to be tweaked for each wine, nor does it need to be prejudicial (e.g., cheese, apples). I agree that the use of food will reduce the number of wines tasteable in one session. This may simply be an imperfection of the world, in my eyes, simply due to the economic necessity to provide many reviews in a short span of time.
…I have never seen a review that choose the whispering wine from a room full of shouting wines.
You: School grades are not relevant to the discussion; that is merely another aspect of why the "100 point scale" seems familiar. …Me: On this one we disagree diametrically. … You: Yes, we do!
Normative (and, dare I say, speculative?) statements aside, the law of supply and demand asserts that the price of B+ wine will rise higher than that of the B- wine because more people pursue the B+ wine than the B- wine.
Daniel Rogov wrote:Tastings of 150 wines are thankfully the exception. And when doing tastings like that, one generally shows up at about 8 a.m. and finishes at about 8 p.m., staggers back to one's hotel, has a good but at least relatively light dinner and then stays up until the wee hours typing up or dictating those damned tasting notes.
If no one posts notes on a sip'n'spit, then the point is to make notes about which wines deserve closer attention. Yes? So, whether it is this (non-)note or the follow-up note, the prejudice is still baked in. Yes?
No…impressions, not biases or prejudices.
Or, perhaps more suited to Woody Allen, people who buy on the basis of scores alone are schmucks.
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