Why am I confused?

Are these actually different grapes? I ask because a local grower has Pinot Grigio that I can buy. From the Winegrape Glossary:

PINOT BIANCO:
Italian version of the grape known as Pinot Blanc. Grown mainly in the Trentino and Fruili regions of Italy. Usually made into a fresh, fruity white wine.

PINOT BLANC:
Was thought to be a mutation of the Pinot Gris vine. However, recent DNA analysis shows identical genetic makeup to the Blau Burgunder variety of Austria, possibly having the parents Schwarzriesling (a.k.a Pinot Meunier) x Traminer, this parentage accounting for the varying skin colors of the various related varieties. Grape is generally used to make dry, crisp, rather intense white wines in the Alsace, parts of Burgundy and in Austria. In the latter country it is known as the Weisser Burgunder. In California, a similarly named grape is used to make a fruity, rather subtle wine similar to the simpler versions of Chardonnay. Used in many of the better champagne style sparkling wines of California because of its acid content and clean flavor. However, recent research speculates that some plantings of this California grown grape variety are actually the Melon de Bourgogne, (a.k.a Muscadet de Bourgogne), a grape grown widely in the western reaches of the Loire region of France, and famous for producing the "Muscadet" tart white wines that match so well with shellfish meals.

PINOT GRIGIO:
(Pronounced "pee-nOH gree-zOH"). Popular synonym name of the Pinot Gris where grown in Italy, the Alsace region of France and elsewhere. Planted extensively in the Venezia and Alto-Adige regions of Italy. Also finding homes in N. America, Australia and New Zealand. Clone SMA 505 is reported to be popular in N. Italy, as is the more aromatic producer SMA 518. In the Alsace it is clones PG 146 and 152 that are reported as most popular. The PG variety has claims to high bud fertility and reportedly readily tends to overcrop beyond the ability to ripen so habitat-suitable rootstocks should be chosen - (SO4 and 5BB are claimed as preferred in N. Italy). Stock is reported as susceptible to the common Mildew diseases. The variety can create crisp, dry wines with good acid "bite" where grown in cool climate regions such as the Alto-Adige/Trentino regions of N. Italy, New Zealand and Washington state. (See also Pinot Gris below).

PINOT GRIS:
Was thought to be a mutant clone of Pinot Noir. However, recent DNA analysis (2002) suggests identical genetic make up to the Blau Burgunder of Austria, the skin colors (ranging from pale pink to coppery purple) of the various related varieties being explained by it being a cross between Schwarzriesling (a.k.a Pinot Meunier) and Traminer. Has several synonym names in France, eg. Fromenteau (Gris) or Fromentot in the Champagne region where it is used in a sparkling wine blend along with Arbane and Petit Meslier wines, Malvoisie (Blanc) in the Loire Ancenis region (an alias not to be confused with the Malvoisie synonym name for the Bourboulenc variety found in the Languedoc). Also known as Pinot Beurot in the Burgundy region where it is selectively used in blends because it produces high sugars. In Germany and Austria it is known as the Ruländer or Grauer Burgunder and used to make pleasant, young, white wines in the southern regions. Similar aliases are used in the german settled regions of Australia. In northeastern Italy it is known as Pinot Grigio. Several clones in the Badacsony region of Hungary appear to be grouped under the alias name Szürkebarát. Versions named Auxerrois Gris and Tokay d'Alsace are also grown in the Alsace where the latter variety is used to make a golden-yellow wine with aromatic, fruity flavors that improves with a couple of years in the bottle - (not to be confused with the Hungarian Furmint grape used to make the famous "Tokaji" sweet wines). Also grown in western coastal regions of the U.S.A. where it ripens earlier than Chardonnay, ie. in mid-late September. Currently, 1997, also recommended for Michigan and New York Finger Lakes growers. Several clones available that seem to vary in resistance to bunch rots. Ohio researchers are currently (1999) testing clone #143 using rootstocks 3309 and 101-14.

I believe they are all the same grape. At least every source I have indicates that they are.

[David M. Bueker]

Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are two different grapes. Of course much that is sold as Pinot Blanc is France (Alsace) is actually Auxerrois (at least in part), but that's a whole different grape.

There's of course no reason to believe that every variant of Pinot Blanc/Pinot Bianco/Weissburgunder is exactly the same as every other variant of Pinot Blanc, as mutations do more than make 3 headed fish.

... and in support of David's comments, ISTR it being written that Pinot Noir is somewhat prone to mutation.

The reference to Blauburgunder in WGG says it is a synonym of Pinot Noir

What the above is saying is, as I read it, that Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc are clones of Pinot Noir and that Pinot Noir's parentage is thought to be from a cross of Pinot Meunier and Traminer.

Though my understanding is that Pinot Meunier is also a Pinot Noir clone with a defective gene giving the powdered leaf look that gained it its name.

Sadly, it seems Anthony Hawkins has given up maintaining his WGG. The version on this site is dated Oct 2007.

At what level are we talking. I thought this was similar to the Zinfandel and Primitivo situation. I thought all were identical at the DNA level but that the clonal differneces were substantial enough to make them unique grapes from a winemaking perspective. I may look for some references during lunch if time permits.

[David M. Bueker]

Well since Howie is talking about making wine then I think that's the level we should we talking about. In which case Pinot Gris/Grigio/Grauburgunder (essentially the same despite minor clonal differences) is distinct from Pinot Blanc/Bianco/Weissburgunder.

Howie - is any of this getting at your question?

the original post sounds very aristotelian - read what the authors say about something rather than bothering with direct observation. i mean pinot blanc clusters are green/golden and pinot gris clusters are dark pink/purple (not black). its the reading that is confusing - not the grapes.

What both Davids said.

Grapes are different on the vine. Taste is different in the mouth (of the grapes). Usually, they make two discernibly different wines (sans extreme manipulation. Pinot Grigio can make pink to light red wine. Pinot Blanc can't.

I'd say they are different.

At what level are we talking. I thought this was similar to the Zinfandel and Primitivo situation. I thought all were identical at the DNA level but that the clonal differneces were substantial enough to make them unique grapes from a winemaking perspective. I may look for some references during lunch if time permits.

There is a simple genetic test that normally distinguishes between what we would call grape varieties. Using this test, all the pinots (blanc, gris and noir) are indistinguishable. But that is not to say they have identical DNA, it's just that in the pinot family relatively small genetic differences manifest themselves in big ways.

I believe you are right in suggesting that at the DNA level the pinots are about as similar to each other as Zinfandel is to Primitivo. Indeed it was the Zin/Primitivo distinction that prompted a very informed discussion on this board, which I hope I have summarised correctly above.

To add to the confusion (from Wiki):

Somewhat confusingly, the designation "Pinot blanc" for Alsace AOC wine does not necessarily mean that the wine is varietally pure Pinot blanc. (This is in difference to Pinot gris, which is a "true" varietal designation in Alsace.) Rather, the designation means that it is a white wine made from Pinot varieties. Under Alsace appellation rules, the varieties Pinot blanc, Auxerrois blanc, Pinot gris and Pinot noir (vinified white, without skin contact) may all be used[2], but a blend of Pinot blanc and Auxerrois is the most common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinot_Grigio"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinot_Blanc"
So, Pinot Gris is a recognized as a varietal in Alsace and Pinot Blanc is authorized in Champagne cuvee, but not vice versa. If they're the same, how can that be? I was thinking of getting some of the local grower's Pinot Grigio and blending some of it with white juice from Pinot Noir to make a bubbly (maybe some Chardonnay also). But I'm still confused I think.

As I understand it, they are all pigment-deficient mutations of pinot noir, which is notorious for its genetic instability. Mutations that result in no or very little color in the grape skins have happened repeatedly with this variety. So it's not surprising that their DNA fingerprints match pinot noir (i.e. Blauburgunder).

-Paul W.

From memory (as I do not possess it) in Tom Stevenson's book on Alsace, he states that an Alsace wine that says Pinot Blanc on the label should contain pure Pinot Blanc. I know for a fact that is not the case, but would welcome comment from others on the legal status. I would have thought that at the bare minimum it would have to be 80%, in order to comply with EU law. As far as I can make out, the AOC regs talk only of a Pinot designation, which can contain any Pinot grape.

One of the reasons why Pinot Blanc, Pinot Gris, and Pinot Noir, are three “different” varieties is because man manipulated them or had a hand in their selection.

Salute

But I'm still confused I think.

Are Pinot Blanc, Pinot Grigio and Pinot Noir all the same variety? The answer is -- for practical reasons -- obviously no. One has black grapes, one has white grapes and one has grey-pink grapes.

But they are all clones of the same original old variety, however they have mutated so far from the original they are recognised as separate varieties. Its only modern DNA testing that has proved this, though the Pinot prefix suggests the old-timers knew the family connection.

So, if I want to compare wines made from Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris, I should compare a Loire Muscadet with an Alsatian Pinot Gris? Any suggestions for wines exhibiting typical varietal characters?

Sorry to add another dimension to the confusion, but I've always understood that Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio were just different styles of wine from the same grape.

[David M. Bueker]

So, if I want to compare wines made from Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris, I should compare a Loire Muscadet with an Alsatian Pinot Gris? Any suggestions for wines exhibiting typical varietal characters?

Howie,

Muscadet is made from Melon de Bourgogne, a totally different grape.

If you want to compare Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris (without spending a bunch of money) you could try the Pinot Blanc from Trimbach (the yellow label) and their Pinot Gris Reserve (they don't make a yellow label Pinot Gris). Another option is that St. Innocent (Oregon) makes both grapes and if you can get your hands on them they are both very good wines.

The grapes are indeed not the same, and Victor's "selection" comment is quite true in that different mutations were likely found to make different styles of wine and thus selected to do just that. Man found something yummy & cultivated it. Man then found something slightly different & cultivated that. Smart man (or woman).

Sorry to add another dimension to the confusion, but I've always understood that Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio were just different styles of wine from the same grape.

Basically, you understand correctly.

Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio are the same variety by anyone's definition. Gris is French, and grigio is Italian, for grey. As there are many clones, it is unlikely that a bottle with Pinot Gris on the label is exactly the same clone as any one with Pinot Gris. Having said that, assuming your Pinot Grigio is Italian, yes it will be a different style from your Pinot Gris, probably from Alsace, and winemakers in other countries may try to emulate those styles. The Italian style is lighter and fresher - cheaper versions are frankly tasteless, and allegedly some are made from the more neutral and cheaper Pinot Bianco (Blanc). Alsace Pinot Gris can be heavy unctuous stuff, often slightly sweet, and very flavoursome.

So, Pinot Gris is a recognized as a varietal in Alsace and Pinot Blanc is authorized in Champagne cuvee, but not vice versa. If they're the same, how can that be?

They are not the same. I think it is only Brian who is saying they are.

Brian - if you could check your sources and let us know what they are, maybe we could get to the bottom of this. I am presuming they refer to the fact that they have very similar DNA. But Blanc clones are distinctively different from Gris clones. You only have to look at the colour of the grapes to see that. The wines are also very different - unless yields are so high they both are rendered tasteless.

Gee, ain't science great! Sounds to me like everybody is full of it and going with current knowledge and buying those portions of it that make points they want to support. I've read a lot of the same crap some of you have.

Researching is what I spend a lot of my time doing.

Lotsa guesses. Who really has a horse in this race? Other than ego, I mean.

Just about everybody in this thread was a "lecturer".

But, then again, I'm just a cook. What the hell do I know?

So, if I want to compare wines made from Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris, I should compare a Loire Muscadet with an Alsatian Pinot Gris? Any suggestions for wines exhibiting typical varietal characters?

Howie,

Muscadet is made from Melon de Bourgogne, a totally different grape.

If you want to compare Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris (without spending a bunch of money) you could try the Pinot Blanc from Trimbach (the yellow label) and their Pinot Gris Reserve (they don't make a yellow label Pinot Gris). Another option is that St. Innocent (Oregon) makes both grapes and if you can get your hands on them they are both very good wines.

The grapes are indeed not the same, and Victor's "selection" comment is quite true in that different mutations were likely found to make different styles of wine and thus selected to do just that. Man found something yummy & cultivated it. Man then found something slightly different & cultivated that. Smart man (or woman).

I misread my own post. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll check with my local wine shop manager (Ed Draves).

Be confused no more, but enjoy! All three make very nice wines. And I might suggest the pairing of a good vichyssoise with a Pinot Blanc from Alsace to really get a grip on the virtues of this rather obscure grape. Lucien-Albrecht makes their Cremant d'Alsace from 100% Pinot Blanc also.

So, if I want to compare wines made from Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris, I should compare a Loire Muscadet with an Alsatian Pinot Gris? Any suggestions for wines exhibiting typical varietal characters?

It gets even more confusing with these old varieties. Leaving aside everything except Pinot Noir.

Get two Pinot Noir wines and they can be different. Even among a variety everyone recognises as the same there are distinct clonal differences between, for instance, the BK7 clone used in Switzerland and parts of Champagne and the 'Dijon' clones favoured in parts of Burgundy California.

There are said to be more than 1000 clones of PN and I've read of several vineyards that deliberately plant half a dozen or more different clones to get a breadth of flavours.

(and lets start on the choice of rootstock