noble grapes question

What the heck is a “noble” grape? I sort of remember a Chem prof talking about noble gases and xenon, but in my work I have never encountered the term in any meaningful technical context. From various web discussions I see a consensus that Pinot Noir and Nebbiolo are “noble” grapes” while no one ever seems to describe Petite Syrah as noble even though I’ve had some seriously good wines made from PS.

So is there some objective criterion for noble grapes or is it just a meaningless buzzword like so many wine terms?

Believe it is something that came out of France? I would have thought the grape varietals one finds in Bordeaux and Burgundy but am really to be surrounded by the firing squad!!

he original definition of noble grapes, a term that came into use during the early years of the 19th century included only six grapes: Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Sauvignon Blanc, Riesling and Chardonnay. That list was later expanded to include Syrah, Chenin Blanc and Semillon.

While those may be the grapes that had the greatest historical impact on producing the great wines of the world, a more modern definition would have to include other varieties as well, for most surely today Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Tempranillo, Mourvedre Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc, Viognier are having their impact on the world of wine. Personally, and I might well be wrong here, I would suggest that listing of "noble" not be applied to hybrids.

Best
Rogov

I've always understood the Noble grapes to be Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay and Riesling. I heard this back in the '70s and was told it was simply based on the grapes used to make the most expensive wines. No, it does not include hybrids, or any species other than vinefera, but there are also a lot of vinefera that are not noble. However, I would contend that there are several hybrid varieties that make better wines than many vineferas.

I would say that, apart from using the term noble to distinguish between vinifera and other grape species including hybrids, it has no exact meaning and is applied to any variety that the writer wants to praise or is fashionable

There was a discussion here some time ago that got quite heated about what should be included in such a list.

The meaningless of the term is, for me, illustrated by Pinot Meunier not being included when it is the major grape of Champagne, or Semillon missed out when the Bordelais blend it with Sauvignon Blanc to make their sweet wines.

Rogov, are you correct in referring to the early 19C? Before phylloxera? And before, I think, such a great focus on varieties rather than origin, i.e. Bordeaux rather than Cab S/Merlot. And wasn't the the vineyard makeup in those days somewhat different to today?

Peter, Hi.....


Indeed the original commentaries were pre-phylloxera and indeed the vineyard plantings were considerably different (Malbec for exampe, was a highly popular grape). The list was not one of concensus by any official body but simply one that came into popular use. Earliest reference I find is in G. A. Dumas (no relation to Alexandre), Les Vins, 1911.

Best
Rogov

Some might find the following link interesting;
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/03/us/fo ... ntage.html

Salute

Indeed, I had forgotten that Chardonnay traces itself to a cross. Ah well...I suppose its something akin to Bastard Kings....if they succeed they become noble and if not they remain bastards.

Best
Rogov

The expression comes from the French, "cépage noble".

The English translation is "premium grape varieties" as opposed to ones that produce inferior wine.

These are the ones Rogov lists above.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Indeed, I had forgotten that Chardonnay traces itself to a cross.

Are there any vinifera varieties that are not crosses or mutations if you go back far enough?

The English translation is "premium grape varieties" as opposed to ones that produce inferior wine.

Thanks, Alex

Wow, thanks to all, especially Peter May! Turns out my "meaningless buzzword" guess was on the money. And nebbiolo is not on the list, though it would be hard to come up with a nobler wine than the '99 G Mascarelli Barolo Monprivato we had last night.

Wow, thanks to all, especially Peter May! Turns out my "meaningless buzzword" guess was on the money. And nebbiolo is not on the list, though it would be hard to come up with a nobler wine than the '99 G Mascarelli Barolo Monprivato we had last night.

One of the retro rules that got factored in to the noble grapes bs in current years was that the grape supposedly had to produce "fine wines" (i.e., the more expensive the better) and that it was supposed to be capable of doing it in more than one location. Thus nebbiolo was usually not discussed as one of the noble ones.

All unmitigated bs as far as I'm concerned.

Michael,

You've made an extremely valid point.

Almost all the "premium grape varieites" are French!

I agree: the most widely accepted definition is skewed.

But what are you going to do.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Michael,

You've made an extremely valid point.

Almost all the "premium grape varieites" are French!

I agree: the most widely accepted definition is skewed.

But what are you going to do.

Why the answer to that is obvious: argue about it on the internet!

It's worth mentioning that in the US in the 1800s a "noble grape" was one that made good wine, as opposed to a good table grape or a grape used for raisins.

Search on "noble grape" on Amazon Books, and you'll find dozens of examples -- two standouts were Isabella and Hermitage. I think this usage comes from a love for Shakespeare, who used the phrase the first time as far as I know.

This usage is an example of things having qualities or properties of a very high or admirable kind.

The OED adopts this usage as standard in its draft revision of June 2009:

Winemaking. Designating a variety of grape recognized as consistently producing wine of outstanding quality under favourable conditions.

[a1616 SHAKESPEARE All's Well that ends Well (1623) II. i. 70 O will you eat no grapes my royal foxe? Yes but you will, my noble grapes. 1861 Amer. Agriculturist Jan. 19/2 The Isabella, at least, can be ripened, three years out of four, as far north as Albany; and when it does mature, a noble grape it is.] 1869 N. Amer. Rev. July 160 The best, and one already planted largely for wine, is the Salem, a noble grape. 1951 H. WARNER ALLEN Nat. Red Wines i. 6 The noble pinot in Burgundy gives the great wines of the Côte d'Or. 1976 S. F. HALLGARTEN German Wines vi. 61 The Riesling vine is the noblest that anyone in Germany has up till now succeeded in cultivating for the production of white wines. 1994 Oxf. Compan. Wine 1087/1 Zinfandel may not be quite such a potentially noble grape variety as Syrah but it is certainly capable of producing fine wine.

Incidentally, in chemistry, the word "noble" is often used to describe a element or compound that is relatively inert and does not mix or interact readily with other elements or compounds.


Best, Bob

Long time no see, Bob!

Thanks for your learned response.

Alex

Thanks, Alex.

I was about to edit my post -- I re-read "Alls Well" and am satisfied [subject to Hoke's correction] that Shakespeare was making the point that wine grapes rather than table grapes were being served.

I enjoyed your post about the French usage -- do you know how long it's been in use in France?

Best, Bob

...1861 Amer. Agriculturist Jan. 19/2 The Isabella, at least, can be ripened, three years out of four, as far north as Albany; and when it does mature, a noble grape it is...

In May I planted a dozen Isabella vines in my yard. I thought the variety was named after my newest granddaughter, who was born on My 1st.