American Syrah?

Except that Cote Rotie, Hermitage, and Cornas are not in the USA, so what you are seeking by definition should not exist. There are some lovely Syrahs (e.g. ESJ, L-M, Radio Coteau, etc.) but to expect them to be Northern Rhone wines is folly.

I said something similar to Northern Rhone syrahs. Syrah does very well in California, but the smoky quality one finds in the best Northern Rhones just isn't there. Based on the comments from one winemaker I talked to, it would seem to be because of California winemakers' infatuation with squeaky-clean winemaking.

-Paul W.

So you are not interested in what California has to offer because they practice good hygiene in the winery? Brett is not terroir.

Well said. What I like about Cote Rotie or Hermitage is not due to brett.

Well, I certainly believe that terroir is not brett. But in fairness to Paul's comment, that's not what he said. The religion of "squeaky clean winemaking" often includes dependence on preferred yeasts as opposed to taking one's chances with indigenous yeasts. And possibly frequent replacement of barrels!

[David M. Bueker]

Well, I certainly believe that terroir is not brett. But in fairness to Paul's comment, that's not what he said. The religion of "squeaky clean winemaking" often includes dependence on preferred yeasts as opposed to taking one's chances with indigenous yeasts. And possibly frequent replacement of barrels!

Perhaps Dale, but why disguise the reason. Better to say that he does not like the levels of new oak or some such.

As for "native" versus cultured yeasts I have never been a true believer in that area, so not going to comment other to say not all native yeasts are positive.

Are you people just totally unaware of the syrahs coming out of Eastern Washington and Southern Oregon?

Absolutely not. The WashState Syrahs can be absolutely stunning. Even the ordinary ones are generally better than their equivalently priced
Calif brethern. Thus far, I've not had anything from the SouthernOregon that's knocked my sox off, mostly from DelRio cnyd. But I've had some
from the WilammetteVlly that have been stunning...very peppery/cold-climate Syrah.
Tom

As for "native" versus cultured yeasts I have never been a true believer in that area, so not going to comment other to say not all native yeasts are positive.

I'm not a "true believer" either, and like many wines across the world that use inoculated yeasts. That said, no one serious about wine that I know of thinks yeasts don't contribute to the flavor profile of wine, and most of my favorite N Rhone producers apparently use native yeasts.

[David M. Bueker]

I've always wondered what native really means. From what I can tell nobody really knows.

Would you not describe anything that isn't added as native (or unguided, wild, or spontaneous)? Is it hard to understand the difference between purchased yeasts and those on grapes/in winery?

Are you people just totally unaware of the syrahs coming out of Eastern Washington and Southern Oregon?

Absolutely not. The WashState Syrahs can be absolutely stunning. Even the ordinary ones are generally better than their equivalently priced
Calif brethern. Thus far, I've not had anything from the SouthernOregon that's knocked my sox off, mostly from DelRio cnyd. But I've had some
from the WilammetteVlly that have been stunning...very peppery/cold-climate Syrah.
Tom

Interesting you should mention that. Today I tasted (well, drank a bottle of) the Penner-Ash 2006, Willamette. I will definitely add it to my previous list.

[David M. Bueker]

Would you not describe anything that isn't added as native (or unguided, wild, or spontaneous)? Is it hard to understand the difference between purchased yeasts and those on grapes/in winery?

What about those wineries that covert to so-call native yeasts? There are undoubtedly yeast strains living in the air that came from when they used cultured yeast. Are they now native? And what's so native abut yeasts in the winery (unless it's a hillside cave)?

Sorry to continually press the point, but I've had some very meaty, bacon fat infused Northern Rhone Syrahs that used cultured yeasts, and some real stinkers (and I mean stink) from those who proclaim the superiority of native yeasts.

Are you people just totally unaware of the syrahs coming out of Eastern Washington and Southern Oregon?

For the most part, yes. There's just too much wine out there! Which seems to be part of the problem with CA syrah. The high end stuff is not getting the prices or the cultish devotion of pinot noir and cabernet sauvignon. Then on the lower end it seems to get squeezed out by soft Merlot. Inbetween it gets stuck. And then of course to the extent that high-octane syrah has caught on with the general public it was mainly from Australia. Now I don't actually have any real data on this stuff, but from my distant view CA syrah does seem to have a problem getting 'branded'.

Maybe some of the CA syrah producers need to get together and discreetly fund a film in which the main character goes crazy for syrah. Then sit back and watch the profits roll in.

What about those wineries that covert to so-call native yeasts? There are undoubtedly yeast strains living in the air that came from when they used cultured yeast. Are they now native? And what's so native abut yeasts in the winery (unless it's a hillside cave)?

Sorry to continually press the point, but I've had some very meaty, bacon fat infused Northern Rhone Syrahs that used cultured yeasts, and some real stinkers (and I mean stink) from those who proclaim the superiority of native yeasts.

I'm not personally equating native yeasts as necessarily better than cultured, thought there seems to be some positive correlation between the wines I like and native yeasts, it's nowhere near 1:1, and I've had grand/vile examples from each type of fermentation start.

My understanding is that yeasts exist almost everywhere- in wine both the vineyard and the winery. With a natural start, one might have multiple yeasts. Those that prefer inoculation generally try to eliminate those natural yeasts, to make sure that there cultured yeasts "control" the fermentation. As noted, I'm not a "believer" in any one method, but the "squeaky clean" style tends to almost always use inoculation. Whether one prefers the results or not, virtually everyone feels that yeasts impart character to wines. Those that like to use cultured choose based on characteristics.

[Jenise]

Interesting you should mention that. Today I tasted (well, drank a bottle of) the Penner-Ash 2006, Willamette. I will definitely add it to my previous list.

Penner Ash, really? Last year I found all their wines plodding and heavily oaked. Wouldn't expect a Rhone junkie like you to go for that. Now the peppery syrah that Cristom makes from grapes grown right there on their Willamette estate, that would be another story.

Interesting you should mention that. Today I tasted (well, drank a bottle of) the Penner-Ash 2006, Willamette. I will definitely add it to my previous list.

I'd love to try their Syrah. I had last night their Rubeo, a Pinot/Syrah blend. Liked it & found it rather interesting. Bit rough/hard on the palate.
Tom

So you are not interested in what California has to offer because they practice good hygiene in the winery? Brett is not terroir.

No. I'm not interested in what most California winemakers have to offer because, to my palate, the wines are overly simplistic and do not live up to the grape variety's potential, as demonstrated in the northern Rhone. I like that smoky syrah style.

I told one winemaker at a public tasting that I thought his syrah was very good, and was only missing that smoky Northern Rhone touch to be superb. I meant it as a compliment. He was horrified, and went on a long tirade about how evil Brett was, and that he'd never allow such a thing to happen in his winery, etc., etc. I was tempted to retort "then you'll never make great syrah", but I just kept my mouth shut and moved on.

I am a bottom line wine drinker. I drink wine for the way it tastes. I don't particularly care where it comes from or how it's made (as long as what's done in the winery isn't actually medically dangerous to the consumer in some way). I like that smoky quality that I seem to find only in the Norther Rhone syrahs. If this is due to Brett, then syrah growers in other regions should consider introducing Brett into their winemaking, IMO.

-Paul W.

My understanding is that yeasts exist almost everywhere- in wine both the vineyard and the winery. With a natural start, one might have multiple yeasts. Those that prefer inoculation generally try to eliminate those natural yeasts, to make sure that there cultured yeasts "control" the fermentation. As noted, I'm not a "believer" in any one method, but the "squeaky clean" style tends to almost always use inoculation. Whether one prefers the results or not, virtually everyone feels that yeasts impart character to wines. Those that like to use cultured choose based on characteristics.

Yeasts do exist almost everywhere, and not just in wineries. In particular, the whitish "bloom" on grapes is a yeast colony. My understanding is that the native yeasts in North America are not necessarily as conducive to producing good flavors in wine or beer as those indigenous to Europe. Where this is the case, a winemaker might get better results with inoculation to establish a "good" yeast in the fermentation vat. This is even done some places in Europe. Chateau de Beaucastel steam-cleans the grape clusters before the crush. This leads me to believe that their Brett problem is in the vineyards rather than the winery.

-Paul W.

Would you not describe anything that isn't added as native (or unguided, wild, or spontaneous)? Is it hard to understand the difference between purchased yeasts and those on grapes/in winery?

What about those wineries that covert to so-call native yeasts? There are undoubtedly yeast strains living in the air that came from when they used cultured yeast. Are they now native? And what's so native abut yeasts in the winery (unless it's a hillside cave)?

Sorry to continually press the point, but I've had some very meaty, bacon fat infused Northern Rhone Syrahs that used cultured yeasts, and some real stinkers (and I mean stink) from those who proclaim the superiority of native yeasts.

I don't think that anyone apart from an extreme idealogue would seriously claim that all the wines made with "native" yeasts are going to be better, nor that it is impossible to make good wine using cultured yeasts. However, most of the producers of my favorite Syrahs don't inoculate with cultured yeast. Whether that's just correlation and not causality I can't say.* I can say with no hesitation, however, that certain cultured yeasts are guaranteed to turn me off a given wine. Your though experiment is an interesting one: does a cultured yeast with time become a native one? And what is meant by a native yeast? The evidence I've seen suggests that the yeasts on the surface of the grapes may not be important to the culture present at fermentation and also that inoculated yeasts may not be the dominant strain present in the fermentation. What seems to be true is that the older wineries have fairly vibrant yeast ecosystems and that introduction of a cultured strain might not significantly perturb the polyculture in the short term. I realize that this doesn't really resolve anything, but perhaps clouds the picture even more than it is already

Mark Lipton

* Which is distinct from my take on biodynamie, where it's definitely correlation and not causality

Interesting you should mention that. Today I tasted (well, drank a bottle of) the Penner-Ash 2006, Willamette. I will definitely add it to my previous list.

Penner Ash, really? Last year I found all their wines plodding and heavily oaked. Wouldn't expect a Rhone junkie like you to go for that. Now the peppery syrah that Cristom makes from grapes grown right there on their Willamette estate, that would be another story.

This one was good.

[David M. Bueker]

The evidence I've seen suggests that the yeasts on the surface of the grapes may not be important to the culture present at fermentation and also that inoculated yeasts may not be the dominant strain present in the fermentation. What seems to be true is that the older wineries have fairly vibrant yeast ecosystems and that introduction of a cultured strain might not significantly perturb the polyculture in the short term. I realize that this doesn't really resolve anything, but perhaps clouds the picture even more than it is already

But does a much better job of getting at my point than I was doing.

After our last discussion about “yeast” I hit the books real hard (Thanks to Tim, who I believe started the tread, Hoke and Thomas P and others). I thought the same way Paul did that, that the “bloom” of the grapes is a colony of many different strains or “wild” and “native” yeast (and possible bacteria) just waiting to pounce on the exposed juice of the grape. In fact however the “bloom” is actually a protective coating of plate wax which covers most on the berries’ skin. The yeast flora found on grapes basically “hang-out” around tiny openings and cracks in the skin of the berries’. When the yeast makes contact with the plates of wax they cease to grow. (Wine Science: Principles and Application by Ronald S Jackson).

Salute

Hi Melissa, welcome to WLDG. I see you haven't posted since your original post in this thread. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on American Syrah.

Well said. What I like about Cote Rotie or Hermitage is not due to brett.

Lou, I agree with you about the CR and the Herm liking not due to brett, bot OTOH, there is nothing wrong with a touch of brett, so long as it isn't skunky. A little horse paddock smell is not at all bad IMO, nor some very minor diaper stink either so long as it is a little. Wine in mind is the 1990 Beaucastel.

Great discussion. There's so much we don't know about where flavor profiles come from. We like to lump it all under "terroir", but like someone pointed out, things like brett aren't truly terroir (by the conventional definition, anyway.) Most of the cultured yeast products are just selections from wild yeasts found in old world wineries and vineyards. Granted, they've gone through lots of additional selection for alcohol, temperature and SO2 tolerance to make sure they're reliable fermenters, especially given the higher sugar levels in California.
It seems like the latest trend is to start the fermentation with wild/native yeast, then at some point (say 18 degrees brix) inoculate with a reliable culture. This might be the best of both worlds. Depending on the strain (which is pure chance, unless you know your native population) native yeasts can cause off flavors, H2S production, VA, or stuck fermentations. Cultured yeasts are way more reliable but might (?) not give some desired complexity. Once inoculated, the vigorous cultered organisms tend to starve out the native yeasts and completely finish the fermentation.

Some Pinot Noir producers actually hope to start fermentation with a bit of Klockera, which is often considered a bad or even a spoilage yeast. It would be really interesting (to some of us geeks anyway) if UC Davis did a large controlled study of native vs. cultured flavor profiles, but no one is paying for that scale of research these days.

So we'll have to wait to find out if the smokyness in the Northern Rhone is due to Brett, some other native organism, conventional terroir, or something else entirely.

John

Great discussion. There's so much we don't know about where flavor profiles come from. We like to lump it all under "terroir", but like someone pointed out, things like brett aren't truly terroir (by the conventional definition, anyway.) Most of the cultured yeast products are just selections from wild yeasts found in old world wineries and vineyards. Granted, they've gone through lots of additional selection for alcohol, temperature and SO2 tolerance to make sure they're reliable fermenters, especially given the higher sugar levels in California.
It seems like the latest trend is to start the fermentation with wild/native yeast, then at some point (say 18 degrees brix) inoculate with a reliable culture. This might be the best of both worlds. Depending on the strain (which is pure chance, unless you know your native population) native yeasts can cause off flavors, H2S production, VA, or stuck fermentations. Cultured yeasts are way more reliable but might (?) not give some desired complexity. Once inoculated, the vigorous cultered organisms tend to starve out the native yeasts and completely finish the fermentation.

Some Pinot Noir producers actually hope to start fermentation with a bit of Klockera, which is often considered a bad or even a spoilage yeast. It would be really interesting (to some of us geeks anyway) if UC Davis did a large controlled study of native vs. cultured flavor profiles, but no one is paying for that scale of research these days.

So we'll have to wait to find out if the smokyness in the Northern Rhone is due to Brett, some other native organism, conventional terroir, or something else entirely.

John

,
Same John DeFiore that I met at a few different offlines in the bay area going back a few years? If so where have you been?

Hi Lou! Yes, it's me, hope you and Betty Lou are doing well. I'll tell you all about where I've been at a future offline over a glass of wine, but I'm more or less back now.

John