Mineral Additives To Wine????

Truth is I was thinking neither of kiwi birds nor of young, plump, vegetarian New Zealand people but of the kiwi fruit. True...that fruit originates in China but not matter how you call it a kiwi remains just as delightful.

Best
Rogov

Jamie Goode has a great article on terroir that touches on the subject of "minerality," including a hilarious experiment in "mineral additives" by Randall Grahm.

I was not suggesting the banning of individual types of tropical fruit in TNs - just the generic term. And that is my main objection to minerality too.

Fair enough, but surely it's about where you draw the line(?): fruity --> cherry --> Morello cherry --> almost ripe Morello cherry --> like the almost ripe Morello cherries that grew in my backyard as a kid...
I concede that specifics can be more helpful than generalities, but there is a point at which the specifics become difficult for others to relate to. (I'm assuming the tasting note is written with the intent of others understanding it, rather than for one's own reference).

The hierachy you suggested, leading from the generic fruity to a very specific fruit kind of makes sense to me. And it is valid to discuss where to draw the line - personally I would suggest somehere in the middle is most useful.

But to say something smells of tropical fruit implies to me that there is something in common between tropical fruits that are distinctively different from fruits grown in other climates. And I don't think that is the case. What similarities, for example, do pineapples and bananas have, and how are they distinctively different from, say, apples and strawberries? In the same way I think "oriental spices" is problematic.

I think both terms are based on (in the nicest possible way) ignorance. I personally do have a notion of what oriental spices and tropical fruits smell like - in my ignorance I imagine Chinese takeaways in the UK, and the cheap fruit juice blends you can get over here. But if I used the terms in tasting notes I doubt they would mean very much to people without my background.

But to say something smells of tropical fruit implies to me that there is something in common between tropical fruits that are distinctively different from fruits grown in other climates. And I don't think that is the case. What similarities, for example, do pineapples and bananas have, and how are they distinctively different from, say, apples and strawberries? In the same way I think "oriental spices" is problematic.
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(late to this thread and there's so much, I'll stick with the last post to comment on)

Steve,
I'm a person who sometimes uses "tropical fruit" and often uses "mineral/minerally/minerality" (not sure if I regularly use "Asian spices" -which I would rather than Oriental if I was using the term - I have used "5-spice", but that's a particular blend). To me the term has meaning, but as with any descriptor we are basing on our personal experiences. To me "tropical fruit" implies very ripe papayas, mangoes, kiwis- all of which seem to me have some flavors similarities- sweet and musky, not very tart. Pineapples and bananas are of course tropical, but not part of MY definition.

Tropical fruits to me are the broadest category of those fruits, taking its place beside "red fruit" (cherries, strawberries, raspberries etc aren't the same, but share some characteristics), " white fruits" (pears and apples), "citrus fruits", "pit fruits" etc. Some of us who aren't the most physically talented as tasters can only narrow it so far sometimes.

Similarly, sometimes I say flint, chalk, slate, iron, etc and sometimes I just say "mineral." Are the tastes I refer to as "mineral" or "flint" truly indicative of those? I don't know. But from a fair amount of blind tasting I think I am somewhat internally consistent.

The other issue of course is the fact that we all taste based on our own physiology. Just as sensitivity to brett, TCA, and pyrazines vary, there is no guarantee (indeed, almost the opposite) that what I taste is what you taste. So maybe I'm trying to describe a taste that you don't even taste.

Every TN is an attempt to describe a previous transitory experience, using metaphor. So getting caught up in exactitude seems a bit counterproductive. But I will say that some people use these terms to describe wines as they taste, and have good records at nailing wines blind (this group would not include me )

By the way, a quick search for Asian spices shows that I did use it last year (but so did Salil, who should know).

The problem I have with the term “minerality” used, as a descriptive term for a wine is that there is no universal acceptable definition of it (Sue brought this up early on in this discussion). The descriptive terms that can be found on the UC Davis Wine Aroma Wheel (or more precisely Ann Noble’s Aroma Wheel) do have a universal acceptable definition and a standard reference can be created for each descriptor. In other words certain aromatic compounds found in apples have been linked or connected to aromatic compounds found in certain wines (I believe Dan brought this up). If you are familiar with the Wine Aroma Wheel, the further you get from the center (the largest circle) of the wheel the more precise the description becomes and the more personal it gets. So your best general (or maybe I should say the easier to follow or understand) tasting notes IMHO will be those staying closer to the center of the circle of the wheel (the smaller circles).
David, Ben and Tom tell us to go out in nature and experience the rocks in their natural environment; this makes a lot of sense to me. But then again are we really experiencing “minerality” or the “great outdoors” and “nature at work” (like Brian, Steve, and Ben pointed out most likely what we experience is due to the soil residue found on the rocks and the activity of the organism that call that particular environment their home).
Daniel tells us to forget about “dirty” rocks, take them home; clean them thoroughly and then let them dry. Then smell them, lick them, if smaller enough put them in your mouth. Most likely the rock will not have its own odor or taste, but somehow your mind will translate this tactical stimulant as a taste response. Now this concept or phenomena I believe is very possible and placing it within the Aroma Wheel puts it way outside the largest circle of the wheel (as Dale just pointed out now your really in the “personal” zone).

Salute

The descriptive terms that can be found on the UC Davis Wine Aroma Wheel (or more precisely Ann Noble’s Aroma Wheel) do have a universal acceptable definition

Universal? Well, Steve says there is no such thing as a "tropical fruit", one of Dr. Noble's subcategories of fruity. They put cherry under "tree fruits" (along w/peach and apple), but raspberry under berry, while I list both cherry and raspberry as "red." Figs are dried fruit? Not when I eat them- we like fresh. Strawberry jam is closer to prune than strawberries? Right. Earthy is dusty, mushroom, or moldy? Let's just say not universal, even without getting into personal taste differences.

[David M. Bueker]

Universal to UC Davis - the center of the known wine universe.

As for there being no tropical fruit - I dare anyone to drink a bottle of Muller-Catoir Scheurebe and then say there is no tropical fruit.

I dare anyone to drink a bottle of Muller-Catoir Scheurebe and then say there is no tropical fruit.

Couple weeks ago:
While we waited for all (well, almost all) to gather, we tried the
1998 Muller-Catoir Haardter Mandelring Scheurebe Spatlese. An old
friend, holding on, though I wouldn't hold much longer. Tropical fruit
cocktail with a squirt of grapefruit and lime, sweet and rich but
lively. B+

Tropical fruit = fruit that is grown in the tropics. Pretty clear cut to me.
That's covers a lot of fruit that grows in places that is hotter than where I live.

They put cherry under "tree fruits" (along w/peach and apple), but raspberry under berry, while I list both cherry and raspberry as "red." Figs are dried fruit? Not when I eat them- we like fresh. Strawberry jam is closer to prune than strawberries? Right. Earthy is dusty, mushroom, or moldy? Let's just say not universal, even without getting into personal taste differences.

Haven't you ever had black cherries? You're missing out on a real treat. You can get yellow cherries too. Personally I like the black cherries to eat.
I agree - figs are at their best when fresh.

Yes, I've had black (and "white" like Rainier -maybe what you refer to as yellow) cherries, and often even reference them in my notes. But when I don't specify, I generally mean red, and I would place those closer to a raspberry than an apple in flavor profile. So red fruits FOR ME would include cherries and raspberries (but not apples!)

A fruit is the ripened reproductive body of a seed plant. And I’m sure we can break it down in too as many sub-categories as one likes. Grown in moderate zones, tropical, or even northern (southern) colder climates; by the color of the skins of the ripening fruit; similar taste profile; vine; bush; tree; does it have “berry” in its name etc. A fig is technical the flower of a fig tree (it doesn’t flower first and then develop the fig). We call it a “fruit” anyway and yes it can be enjoyed both “fresh” and “dried”.

Salute

I think I am sticking with my opinion on the use of "tropical fruit", but I am argued-out now.

On due consideration though, I will accept that the term minerality could be meaningful - even if I am not sure what the meaning is. In other words, it is difficult to confuse a mineral aroma/taste for one that is fruity or or floral, so it unambiguously tells me something at least.

Jamie Goode has a great article on terroir that touches on the subject of "minerality," including a hilarious experiment in "mineral additives" by Randall Grahm.

Just finished reading Jamie's article. Highly recommended reading....no...a must read.
Thanks, Dave.
Tom

I'm a person who sometimes uses "tropical fruit"...To me "tropical fruit" implies very ripe papayas, mangoes, kiwis- all of which seem to me have some flavors similarities- sweet and musky, not very tart. Pineapples and bananas are of course tropical, but not part of MY definition.

I also use tropical fruit as a descriptor because I don't want to get all hung up debating papayas vs. mangoes and such and the flavors I am looking for are generally in the sweet and musky realm as you say. However, I include pineapples in the description because I find a certain deep rich sweet yet tart note in many (riesling) wines that remind me almost exactly of ripe pineapple. This does not count the pale yellow tasteless stuff we all too often get in the States, although I might use that as a descriptor for wines that are even tarter.

I also use tropical fruit as a descriptor because I don't want to get all hung up debating papayas vs. mangoes and such and the flavors I am looking for are generally in the sweet and musky realm as you say. However, I include pineapples in the description because I find a certain deep rich sweet yet tart note in many (riesling) wines that remind me almost exactly of ripe pineapple. This does not count the pale yellow tasteless stuff we all too often get in the States, although I might use that as a descriptor for wines that are even tarter.

Rahsaan,
I often use pineapple as a descriptor, I was just saying that it's not what I'm thinking of when I use the more general term "tropical"

Now back to your regular mineral programming