WineLovers Discussion Group

Pineau d'Aunis
Thanks
Redwinger

Pee-no Doh-nee

Love that stuff!

Robin beat me to it I see! Was just going to put that.

One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words? I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals for the 1st performance of Pélleas et Mélisande because they pronounced Pélleas without the "s" at the end...

-O-

Otto Nieminen wrote:One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words? I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals for the 1st performance of Pélleas et Mélisande because they pronounced Pélleas without the "s" at the end...

My French bites, Otto, so take the following with a grain of <i>sel</i>.

I think the "s" is sounded mostly when the word comes to French from another language (perhaps the case with "Pélleas") or when it is rooted in Southern France - Provencal and Languedocian sound the final S in many wine words like "Cornas" and "Gigondas" and "Mas" and, for that matter, "Cos d'Estournel."

Oh, also there's that funky <i>liaison</i> in which normally silent final consonants are sounded if they precede a vowel in context. So in any case, "Pélleas et" would sound like "Pelly ah-say" regardless of whether the "s" was normally sounded. I think.

Thanks Robin! I actually knew about the liaison

Robin Garr wrote:Pee-no Doh-nee

Love that stuff!

Got it.
Thanks, Robin

Robin Garr wrote:Pee-no Doh-nee

Where aren't we meant to pee? I never could understand the French!

I seem to recall Eric Nicolas of Bellivière pronouncing the final "s" in Aunis. He is one of the best producers and his white Jasnières and Coteaux du Loir are fabulous.

Tim York wrote:I seem to recall Eric Nicolas of Bellivière pronouncing the final "s" in Aunis. He is one of the best producers and his white Jasnières and Coteaux du Loir are fabulous.

Tim, thanks for the testimony ... Otto and I have both confessed to having severe limits on our French skills, and a recollection from a producer would certainly add credibility to the with-an-ess alternative.

Otto Nieminen wrote:
One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words?

-O-

I always used to think it was a tragic waste of letters, to put them there and not bother pronouncing them

Now I live near a place called Wymondham (pronounced Winned-ham) and another called Happisburgh (pronounced Hays-boro). You'd think letters grew on trees the way these people waste them

regards

Ian

LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

In North America we like to pronounce all all letters. Thus it is Dez Moynes (Des Moines) Iowa and Harver De Gray-see (Havre deGrace) Maryland. Though that doesn't explain the silent T in Bawlmore (Baltimore).

Singing French is different than spoken French. I remember in my singing days that often the "s" was sung in French. There are some differences in German also. And regional differences in American English are glossed over when sung. And interestingly, a good friend from England says that her chorus master suggests that the chorus sing "more like an American" whereas various directors I have sung under want the chorus the sing "more like the British".

Otto Nieminen wrote: I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals...

Ye Gods, man, I thought you were a young student, not some ancient geezer. That must have been 95 years ago at least - I'll say one thing, you've a hell of a memory for a guy your age...
cheers,
Graeme

I confirm that you do, in fact, pronounce the "s".

Pee-no Doe-neece

Best regards,
Alex .R

Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

Paul
Change the WIS to a WUS and you're about there I reckon

regards
Ian from "Nar-ridge"

Ian Sutton wrote:

Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

Paul
Change the WIS to a WUS and you're about there I reckon

regards
Ian from "Nar-ridge"

Ea-ann from Nor-witch for the those who wish to master standard American Englis. Don't get started on New England, Canadain/Midwestern accents. Southern American English should be redefined as a different language altogther.We haven't even begun to discuss subregional variations Unfortunately, many of these are dying out due to the influence of television and the frequent movement of people from place to place.

AlexR wrote:I confirm that you do, in fact, pronounce the "s".

Pee-no Doe-neece

Alex, are we correct in thinking that the sounded "s" is an exception to the usual rule in French? If so, do you have any idea why this is excepted?

Hi Robin,

Gee, place names are often an exception to standard pronunciation...

You and I went to the town of Blaye (rhymes with "fly"), but a Parisian would pronounce it "Blay" (rhymes with "play"), because it makes sense...
By the rules of French pronunciation, the city of Agen, on the way to Toulouse, should be pronounced "Ah-jawn", but it is said "Ah-Jehn". (ryhmes with "vin").
You pronounce the "s" in the names of French cities such as "Senlis", "Duras", "Bazas", "Tournus", "Alès", etc. but NOT cities such as "Rennes", "Angers", "Cannes", "Lourdes", or... "Paris".

In other words, there is no rule...

In terms of wine, look at the finest estate in Barasac, Château Climens. It is pronounced "Clee-mance" (ryhmes with "dance"). And, of course, there's the famous "s" at the end of the first word in Cos d'Estournel.

Other countries have anomalies with place names too. The English are pretty good at it. I once passed through a city called "Keighley", which they pronounce "Keith-ly".

And then, there's always Peter Mon-day-vee, and Robert Mon-dah-vee!

Sure ain't simple... Makes learning foreign languages even more of a challenge.

Best regards,
Alex R.

AlexR wrote:In other words, there is no rule...

No rule, no, but I would note that (as I mentioned to Otto in another post), I believe that the exceptions <i>tend</i> to come in proper names based on either a non-French word or a word derived from Provencal or Languedocian, in which the final "s" is consistently pronounced: Cornas, Gigondas, Mas and ... Cos.

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