A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Moderators: Jenise, David M. Bueker, Robin Garr

A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Redwinger » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:56 am

Pineau d'Aunis
Thanks
Redwinger
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
Redwinger
Wine guru
 
Posts: 3859
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Robin Garr » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:08 am

Pee-no Doh-nee

Love that stuff!
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 16675
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Otto » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:14 am

Robin beat me to it I see! :) Was just going to put that.

One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words? I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals for the 1st performance of Pélleas et Mélisande because they pronounced Pélleas without the "s" at the end...

-O-
I don't drink wine because of religious reasons ... only for other reasons.

No longer ITB.
User avatar
Otto
Musaroholic
 
Posts: 3978
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Robin Garr » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:30 am

Otto Nieminen wrote:One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words? I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals for the 1st performance of Pélleas et Mélisande because they pronounced Pélleas without the "s" at the end...


My French bites, Otto, so take the following with a grain of <i>sel</i>.

I think the "s" is sounded mostly when the word comes to French from another language (perhaps the case with "Pélleas") or when it is rooted in Southern France - Provencal and Languedocian sound the final S in many wine words like "Cornas" and "Gigondas" and "Mas" and, for that matter, "Cos d'Estournel."

Oh, also there's that funky <i>liaison</i> in which normally silent final consonants are sounded if they precede a vowel in context. So in any case, "Pélleas et" would sound like "Pelly ah-say" regardless of whether the "s" was normally sounded. I think. :)
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 16675
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Otto » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:36 am

Thanks Robin! I actually knew about the liaison :)
I don't drink wine because of religious reasons ... only for other reasons.

No longer ITB.
User avatar
Otto
Musaroholic
 
Posts: 3978
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Redwinger » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:47 am

Robin Garr wrote:Pee-no Doh-nee

Love that stuff!

Got it.
Thanks, Robin
Smile, it gives your face something to do!
Redwinger
Wine guru
 
Posts: 3859
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Way Down South In Indiana, USA

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby James Roscoe » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:48 am

Robin Garr wrote:Pee-no Doh-nee


Where aren't we meant to pee? I never could understand the French!
James Roscoe
Chat Prince
 
Posts: 10408
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:43 pm
Location: D.C. Metro Area - Maryland

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Tim York » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:22 pm

I seem to recall Eric Nicolas of Bellivière pronouncing the final "s" in Aunis. He is one of the best producers and his white Jasnières and Coteaux du Loir are fabulous.
Tim York
Tim York
Wine guru
 
Posts: 3799
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: near Lisieux, France

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Robin Garr » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:13 pm

Tim York wrote:I seem to recall Eric Nicolas of Bellivière pronouncing the final "s" in Aunis. He is one of the best producers and his white Jasnières and Coteaux du Loir are fabulous.


Tim, thanks for the testimony ... Otto and I have both confessed to having severe limits on our French skills, and a recollection from a producer would certainly add credibility to the with-an-ess alternative.
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 16675
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Ian Sutton » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:07 pm

Otto Nieminen wrote:
One sort of related question, as my French sucks also. When is the "s" pronounced at the end of words?

-O-

I always used to think it was a tragic waste of letters, to put them there and not bother pronouncing them :lol:

Now I live near a place called Wymondham (pronounced Winned-ham) and another called Happisburgh (pronounced Hays-boro). You'd think letters grew on trees the way these people waste them :roll:

regards

Ian
User avatar
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:10 pm
Location: Norwich, UK

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Paul B. » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:15 pm

LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?
Hybrid Wines Online:
http://hybridwines.blogspot.ca
User avatar
Paul B.
Hybrid Guru
 
Posts: 2020
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:38 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby James Roscoe » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:24 pm

Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?


In North America we like to pronounce all all letters. Thus it is Dez Moynes (Des Moines) Iowa and Harver De Gray-see (Havre deGrace) Maryland. Though that doesn't explain the silent T in Bawlmore (Baltimore).
James Roscoe
Chat Prince
 
Posts: 10408
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:43 pm
Location: D.C. Metro Area - Maryland

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Harry Cantrell » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Singing French is different than spoken French. I remember in my singing days that often the "s" was sung in French. There are some differences in German also. And regional differences in American English are glossed over when sung. And interestingly, a good friend from England says that her chorus master suggests that the chorus sing "more like an American" whereas various directors I have sung under want the chorus the sing "more like the British".
Harry C.
Harry Cantrell
Ultra geek
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:18 pm

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Graeme Gee » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:44 am

Otto Nieminen wrote: I remember Debussy being cross with the singers during the rehersals...


Ye Gods, man, I thought you were a young student, not some ancient geezer. That must have been 95 years ago at least - I'll say one thing, you've a hell of a memory for a guy your age... :D
cheers,
Graeme
Graeme Gee
Ultra geek
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:13 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby AlexR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:43 am

I confirm that you do, in fact, pronounce the "s".

Pee-no Doe-neece

Best regards,
Alex .R
AlexR
Wine guru
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:28 am
Location: Bordeaux

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Ian Sutton » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:34 am

Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

Paul
Change the WIS to a WUS and you're about there I reckon

regards
Ian from "Nar-ridge"
User avatar
Ian Sutton
Spanna in the works
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:10 pm
Location: Norwich, UK

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby James Roscoe » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:33 am

Ian Sutton wrote:
Paul B. wrote:LOL!! Ian!

And I've always been one to mangle the famed Worchestershire. My instinct is to just say it: "WAR-chester-SHIRE", though I think it's more like "WIS-tuh-shuh", isn't it?

Paul
Change the WIS to a WUS and you're about there I reckon

regards
Ian from "Nar-ridge"


Ea-ann from Nor-witch for the those who wish to master standard American Englis. Don't get started on New England, Canadain/Midwestern accents. Southern American English should be redefined as a different language altogther.We haven't even begun to discuss subregional variations Unfortunately, many of these are dying out due to the influence of television and the frequent movement of people from place to place.
James Roscoe
Chat Prince
 
Posts: 10408
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:43 pm
Location: D.C. Metro Area - Maryland

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Robin Garr » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:40 am

AlexR wrote:I confirm that you do, in fact, pronounce the "s".

Pee-no Doe-neece


Alex, are we correct in thinking that the sounded "s" is an exception to the usual rule in French? If so, do you have any idea why this is excepted?
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 16675
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby AlexR » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:23 am

Hi Robin,

Gee, place names are often an exception to standard pronunciation...

You and I went to the town of Blaye (rhymes with "fly"), but a Parisian would pronounce it "Blay" (rhymes with "play"), because it makes sense...
By the rules of French pronunciation, the city of Agen, on the way to Toulouse, should be pronounced "Ah-jawn", but it is said "Ah-Jehn". (ryhmes with "vin").
You pronounce the "s" in the names of French cities such as "Senlis", "Duras", "Bazas", "Tournus", "Alès", etc. but NOT cities such as "Rennes", "Angers", "Cannes", "Lourdes", or... "Paris".

In other words, there is no rule...

In terms of wine, look at the finest estate in Barasac, Château Climens. It is pronounced "Clee-mance" (ryhmes with "dance"). And, of course, there's the famous "s" at the end of the first word in Cos d'Estournel.

Other countries have anomalies with place names too. The English are pretty good at it. I once passed through a city called "Keighley", which they pronounce "Keith-ly".

And then, there's always Peter Mon-day-vee, and Robert Mon-dah-vee!

Sure ain't simple... Makes learning foreign languages even more of a challenge.

Best regards,
Alex R.
AlexR
Wine guru
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:28 am
Location: Bordeaux

Re: A little pronounciation help...My French Sucks.

Postby Robin Garr » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:53 am

AlexR wrote:In other words, there is no rule...


No rule, no, but I would note that (as I mentioned to Otto in another post), I believe that the exceptions <i>tend</i> to come in proper names based on either a non-French word or a word derived from Provencal or Languedocian, in which the final "s" is consistently pronounced: Cornas, Gigondas, Mas and ... Cos.

Comment?
User avatar
Robin Garr
Forum Janitor
 
Posts: 16675
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Louisville, KY


Return to The Wine Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests