WTN: Is "mature" Savennières supposed to taste like this?

I ask the question because when I criticised this wine for being oxidative at last night’s TGVins’ Club tasting, Pierre, our very experienced mentor (his speciality is Rhône), said “this is how older Savennières tastes” and another chimed in saying that this is a product of the prevalent schist. I did not, however, detect any great enthusiasm for the wine round the table.

Savennières Cuvée Spéciale 1996 – Domaine du Closel – Alc. 13.5% with approx. 6g of RS.
C: Deep yellow veering towards amber.
N: Oxidative aromas of tired sherry with a strong note of malt.
P: Quite dry seeming, powerful and complex but lacking focus with discordant notes of apple pie with raisins, candied undertow, more malt and tired sherry with marked acidity; it was the juxtaposition of strong malt and candy which disturbed me most; 12.5/20.

I have consigned bottles like this to the sink and even some less bad from my unsatisfactorily uneven purchase of mid-90s Château d’Epiré. Nutty flavours and just a dab of sherry I can enjoy and one or two of the Epiré lot, particularly a CS 96, and several mature examples from Soulez have been like that. My best mature Savennières experience was with a 10 year old bottle of Baumard’s Trie Spéciale 1990. Like everyone I have had uneven experience with Joly’s prestigious Coulée de Serrant and other wines.

So I don’t accept that older Savennières has to be like this; it smacks of sloppy wine-making. What the appellation needs is leadership from vignerons of the talent of Vouvray’s Foreau, Pinguet and Chidaine. “Joly pisse partout”, as said one of our number, a lady.

Thanks for the post, I agree with you entirely. I do wonder if the equation:

sloppy winemaking + low SO2 = oxidation

holds and, in its wake, the palates of people like Joly become increasingly oxidation-tolerant, to the point where they no longer see it as a flaw (as, presumably, a lover of vin jaune would also not consider it a flaw in a Savennieres).

Yesterday Marcia and I decided to visit the central Loire during the beginning of June, and I'll add this to my list of issues to ask vignerons about.

presumably, a lover of vin jaune would also not consider it a flaw in a Savennieres).

It is interesting that you should say that, Oswaldo. Two wines further on, after a sublime sweet Vouvray, we got a Château-Chalon 85 which was far superior - focussed, nutty, stonily crisp yet with a quite caressing texture.

I will write a WTN about the whole tasting.

Tim
I'll try to report back when I set up the tasting with friends - built around tasting three Closel wines from the same vintage (Les Caillardieres, Les Coulees and Clos du Papillon, all from 1999, which apparently is a fairly non-descript vintage). I'm interested, albeit always expected these wines to be challenging, perhaps more so now.

In terms of food, any thoughts of what might work well with these wines?

regards

Ian

Tim

In terms of food, any thoughts of what might work well with these wines?

That's a difficult one, Ian. On the assumption that your bottles will be less oxidised and malty than this one, I would try a fresh water fish with a suitable sauce; I remember Savennières going very well with "sandre au beurre blanc" at the formerly excellent restaurant Jeanne de Laval at Les Rosiers-sur-Loire. However, "beurre blanc" is a difficult sauce to make successfully unless you have a good cook in your entourage. Sauces hollandaise, Vincent or a decent mayonnaise might fit the bill.

At last night's tasting the same lady who make the remark about Joly suggested Jura vin jaune as a suitable pairing for asparagus. Frankly this surprises me but I will try it this spring. If oxidative vin jaune works with asparagus, nutty Savennières might also.

I think that decanting helps to bring out the expressiveness of some bottles of Savennières, which can be quite surly. Joly apparently recommends decanting 24 hours before serving However, if the wine has gone far down the oxidative route, I can't see how this helps.

Let us know how your comparative tasting goes.

I think that is how schist tastes when it is shut down. Or dead.

Joly apparently recommends decanting 24 hours before serving However, if the wine has gone far down the oxidative route, I can't see how this helps.

My doubt exactly.

I ask the question because when I criticised this wine for being oxidative at last night’s TGVins’ Club tasting, Pierre, our very experienced mentor (his speciality is Rhône), said “this is how older Savennières tastes” and another chimed in saying that this is a product of the prevalent schist. I did not, however, detect any great enthusiasm for the wine round the table.[...]

So I don’t accept that older Savennières has to be like this; it smacks of sloppy wine-making. What the appellation needs is leadership from vignerons of the talent of Vouvray’s Foreau, Pinguet and Chidaine. “Joly pisse partout”, as said one of our number, a lady.

This is an interesting question, Tim. Certainly, my impression is that Savennières should be able to withstand a decade in bottle without oxidizing too much and '96 was beyond doubt a very good year in Anjou. I recently had a similar experience with a '97 Tijou Clos de Perrières that had gone down that oxidative path to a shocking extent. Is it that producers cut back on sulfites in that period, or were they making drier wines that required (as they saw it) less sulfite addition? Or <troll> is it the dreaded PremOx phenomenon? </troll>

Mark Lipton

I actually had a 2002 Closel last night, the Papillon which has been reported as dying already. This was quite dark, but only hints of oxidation, and even those blew off. I had a final glass about 4 hours after opening (go Heels!), it was the freshest and most open of the night. Will do notes later

I have only had a few (5 or 6, including one Coulee) Savennières, so I cannot directly address the question, but I would note that without fail and to my taste, every one of them tasted at its best just as the bottle was being emptied, whether that was a couple hours into dinner, the next night, or several days later. So...perhaps some more time open would have meant improvement.

I actually had a 2002 Closel last night, the Papillon which has been reported as dying already...I had a final glass about 4 hours after opening (go Heels!), it was the freshest and most open of the night.

Nice!

Evidence for the 'sleeping stage' theory of this oxidation showing.

I actually had a 2002 Closel last night, the Papillon which has been reported as dying already. This was quite dark, but only hints of oxidation, and even those blew off. I had a final glass about 4 hours after opening (go Heels!), it was the freshest and most open of the night. Will do notes later

I had a similar experience with a 2002 Closel Papillon last fall, though it we finished it in less than 4 hours. Dark in color, but not oxidized and very nice to drink. Though we also had a 2002 Closel Jalousie a few weeks earlier that was definitely oxidized.

Tim

This is a note I posted elsewhere after a very similar experience at my wife's birthday.

"First up was a 2006 Francois Villard ‘Le Grand Vallon’ Condrieu Northern Rhone, France. Lovely viognier, peaches and pear with excellent complexity over a good line and length. I then decided to follow it with a white 1999 Domaine Du Caillou, from CnP. I have to be honest and say I just don't get it. I know the white was not off but the style is more oxidative than I can cope with. That said after being open for 3 hours or so, the petrol nose did start to blow away and some interesting things was starting to happen in the glasss. I just don't believe I would ever catch up with it. I kept thinking of Basquiat on steroids whilst I was drinking it, all hard angles and violent colours."

Mark

Savennieres is one of my favorite wines. I have had several experiences with the "sherry-like" flavors lessening as the wine opens up. I have learned to give all of my savennieres time to breath before I make judgment on them. They are definitely funky with age, but thats what I like about them.

It used to be that Savennieres under age ten or fifteen were undrinkable but winemaking styles changed at some of the wineries a few years ago, such as at Closel, which is now making wines approachable upon release. I recall a couple of years ago Pierre Rovani said he thought a recent release of Closel's Papillon would be over the hill in a few years. I asked the winemaker's daughter what she thought about that and she said they didn't know.

The ongoing discussion on this thread about what to eat with Savenniers is very interesting, and timely. Tonight my wife and I were scratching our heads about what to serve with a 1992-2000 vertical tasting of Domaine aux Moines Savennieres Roche aux Moines we plan to have a few months from now. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Savennieres is one of my favorite wines. I have had several experiences with the "sherry-like" flavors lessening as the wine opens up. I have learned to give all of my savennieres time to breath before I make judgment on them. They are definitely funky with age, but thats what I like about them.

Doug, what about decanting? I wonder.

Savennieres is one of my favorite wines. I have had several experiences with the "sherry-like" flavors lessening as the wine opens up. I have learned to give all of my savennieres time to breath before I make judgment on them. They are definitely funky with age, but thats what I like about them.

Doug, what about decanting? I wonder.

I think that it is one of the lessons of this thread that traditional Savennières benefits from a lot of air even if that seems counter-intuitive when faced by signs of oxidisation. New wave Savennières from the likes of Morgat, Laureau and the Bordelais influenced Fournier group (ex Soulez and Pithon) are probably a different ball-game; it is a new priority to try some of their wines.

I think that it is one of the lessons of this thread that traditional Savennières benefits from a lot of air even if that seems counter-intuitive when faced by signs of oxidisation. New wave Savennières from the likes of Morgat, Laureau and the Bordelais influenced Fournier group (ex Soulez and Pithon) are probably a different ball-game; it is a new priority to try some of their wines.

We'll be doing precisely that in and around Angers from June 5 to 8, in case anyone wants to join us!

We'll be doing precisely that in and around Angers from June 5 to 8, in case anyone wants to join us!

That is a very tempting idea, Oswaldo. Some of my very favourite estates are located along about 150km of Loire between Savennières and Vouvray. But getting away in a household with 5 dogs is a logistical nightmare. I'll revert to you by PM.

Tim,

I think the wine was shot, although I've never experimented with trying to wait out apparent oxidation.

I've had several 1995 and 1996 prematurely oxidized Savennières, but good ones should be still young and correct to Chenin Blanc (i.e. not Sherry-like). No reason they couldn't age as well as a Vouvray, is there?

Food with Savennieres - I like some sort of sweetbread preparation in a creamy sauce, preferably with mushrooms. This doesn't give overpowering favours and it plays off the remaining acidity of the wine.

Now you guys have me all worried about my 93, 95 and 97 Closels - will have to start pulling corks!!

Now you guys have me all worried about my 93, 95 and 97 Closels - will have to start pulling corks!!

What are you waiting for with 93?

Not a vintage that I would have picked for longterm cellaring.

Of course it's all relative in Savennieres and they probably will surprise some in 20 years. But still..