Oregon 2007 Pinot Noir

Most of them I feel are good wines based on what they were given to work with.

That's a very polite way of saying that there wasn't much to work with. It rained, and rained, and rained.

As a retailer myself, I have one overall complaint about the '07 Oregon vintage: On the whole, it produced subpar wines. When that happens in Bordeaux, prices come down. They haven't (yet) for Oregon wines.

I have one more specific complaint: I think the Oregon scene demonstrates that there is such at thing as excessive dedication to terroir. It seems common knowledge that you can get more money from a single vineyard wine. The problem is, when the vintage isn't so great, it takes more grapes from more locations to make something that will be palatable. I think the Willamette has done a disservice to itself by making the single-vineyard wine the be-all and end-all. Of course, I can also make the argument the other way: The '07 A to Z, which is not site-specific, is still a lesser wine than previous vintages. Maybe there are some years when you just can't win. And, of course, sales of A to Z continue unabated: No matter the actual quality, people still demand the stuff. And believe me, if people want it, I'm going to do my best to have it for them, regardless of my own opinion. (That's how you can tell I'm really a retailer )

I've not run across this obsession with single vineyards you mention. Most of the winemakers I know have no problem with blending. Well, at least those within twenty-five miles of me, which is surely not more than a hundred or so.

Nice thread ... digging through it.

My complaint is that so many of the Oregon wineries seem to start at $30+, and that is not conducive to me sticking my toe in the water.

I think there a lot of sub $30 that for me are in the quality range of equally priced Bourgognes. And easier to connect with the wine-makers.

St Innocent
Zenith
Westrey
Cristom
Evesham Wood
Scott Paul
Belle Pente
Biggio-Hamina

Off the top of my head.

Jason

[David M. Bueker]

As a retailer myself, I have one overall complaint about the '07 Oregon vintage: On the whole, it produced subpar wines. When that happens in Bordeaux, prices come down. They haven't (yet) for Oregon wines.

Have you been paying attention to Bordeaux pricing for the last few years? 2005 - shockingly high prices for outstanding wines. 2006 - even higher prices for wines that are not generally as good. 2007 - similarly ridiculous prices for wines that are not even as good as the 2006s.

Jason,
a lot of it is what is available to me. I don't usually order wines from out of state that I haven't tried, except for rare occasions based on raves from those I trust. Especially not from producers I don't know. As I indicated in a previous post, I do buy St Innocent and Belle Pente, because they have had entry level wines I could afford to experiment on (and which were in my market).
So I just took a look at what is available from your list in metro area on WS Pro:

St Innocent (which I already buy)- Villages bottling starts at about $26 in NY and NJ (there's one $24 listing, but it's an infamous ghost/distributor list retailer, they won't actually have it)
Zenith (never heard of)- none available in NY or NJ
Westrey (never heard of)-$29 in NY (06), $23 in NJ (the 07 from retailer I've never heard of)
Cristom (think I had once)- $27 at Garnet in NY, $26 from same ghost-list retailer in NJ
Evesham Wood (think I had once)- cheapest $35 in both NJ and NY
Scott Paul (heard of, never tried) - $50 for La Paulee at Park Ave (famously expensive store, sure it's $35 or so regularly), none available in NJ
Belle Pente (which I already buy)- $25
Biggio-Hamina (heard of, never tried)- none available in NY or NJ

I understand these are smaller production wineries for the most part, but what is available to me determines what I try. There are lots of $15-30 Bourgognes from respected producers in my market. I already buy BP and StI, may try the Westrey and Cristom based on your rec. But unlikey to cross the $30 threshold for Scott Paul or EW unless I try at a store tasting or offline and like.

Thanks for the pointers

Evesham Wood and Westrey both have sub $20 bottlings ... but you would have to order direct or from out of state.

Scott Paul does have an entry level bottling around $25 .

But I understand if you are buying locally it would be tough to get.

Zenith Vineyard is what used to be the O Connor Vineyard (sp) and is where St Innocent is located. Mark V. of SI makes the Zenith Estate wines.

Jason

I love the region and Portland is one of my favorite cities. Oregon Pinot is interesting and goes well with the local fish and game. Having said that, I am convinced that Oregon's finest wine is their Pinot Gris. Fairly priced, clean, crisp, and world class. I wish it got more press. Does anyone agree with me on this? Decent sparklers too! (Argyle comes to mind).

[David M. Bueker]

I like Oregon Pinot Gris a lot, but it doesn't come close to the best from Alsace.

Dale:

Your philosophy with respect to OR PN just about mirrors mine. St. Innocent and Belle Pente are two that make it out east and have reliable quality for a fair price. I've had Westry PN when visiting OR and they make a nice wine for the price - never seen it around here, though. Some of the lower end bottlings from WillaKenzie had pretty good QPR as well, but I haven't tried any recently.

Jason:

Just picked up an estate bottled PN (2006) from Freja Vinyards in the Willamette Valley - it looked like it might be worth a try at $17. Any experience with this producer?

Jason:

Just picked up an estate bottled PN (2006) from Freja Vinyards in the Willamette Valley - it looked like it might be worth a try at $17. Any experience with this producer?

No, I haven't heard of them. As much as I try to follow the area, I hear a new name every week. Let us how it is. So many solid wines in 2006. I have found the vintage boring but I don't recall having any bad wines.

Jason

Have you been paying attention to Bordeaux pricing for the last few years? 2005 - shockingly high prices for outstanding wines. 2006 - even higher prices for wines that are not generally as good. 2007 - similarly ridiculous prices for wines that are not even as good as the 2006s.

Now why would I pay attention to Bordeaux prices?

I was thinking specifically of '02, David. Not a banner year, and pricing was more (ahem) appropriate, and remains so.

In my mind, are most of these wines worth $25 or more ?

With all due respect, individuals expressing their opinion about what something is worth has short legs. The next guy might have a completely different point of view. I wonder if it would be possible for Oregon wine drinkers to unite in some way and pay for a few billboard ads that said, "there isn't an Oregon Pinot Noir worth more than $25; don't be a fool and pay more." Maybe such a campaign could have an impact on pricing.

Covert,
I don't recall meeting you but must have if you know I am short. However, I may be short in height, but tall in history and experience in the Oregon wine industry,. I don't recall ever saying that there is not an Oregon Pinot Noir that is worth more than $ 25.00, and really don't think such a campaign would have an impact on pricing.

Linda, I apologize. When I wrote that short-legs sentence, I realized that the grammar was wrong, but got called away or something and didn't change it. The fact that I had let it go nagged at me subconsciously, so I am glad for the opportunity to clean it up now. I meant that opinions have short legs, not the people who offer them. It's an old Chinese expression that is often applied to money, e.g., "People have short legs; money has long legs; you want to have money chasing you."

I will be interested in your tasting notes, and to try one or two Pinots that you liked. Who knows, maybe I would share your opinion.

Best,

Covert

[David M. Bueker]

I was thinking specifically of '02, David. Not a banner year, and pricing was more (ahem) appropriate, and remains so.

Perhaps, but the "remains so" has nothing to do with the Bordelaise, but rather lukewarm consumer demand.

2002 Bordeaux was quite similar in price to 2001 by the way, and not all that far off the first tranche of 2000 (except for the first growths which were vastly cheaper in 2002 - my only en primeur purchase of a 1st is 2002 Mouton).

I like Oregon Pinot Gris a lot, but it doesn't come close to the best from Alsace.

Getting closer all the time. Btw, if I'm not mistaken the guy who tends the vineyards for Linda (Luis?) used to do the same for Sokol-Blosser.

http://www.americanwaymag.com/everest-j ... icago-food

[David M. Bueker]

Indeed the Oregon Pinot Gris I am drinking now is better than what was available 10 years ago, but there's still a long way to go.

Of course then there's the stylistic differences, and as I was "brought up on" Pinot Gris from Alsace I am predisposed to the style of wine from that region.

Perhaps, but the "remains so" has nothing to do with the Bordelaise, but rather lukewarm consumer demand.

That is exactly my point. There isn't a lot of demand, and prices are adjusted accordingly. Regarding Bordeaux, I'm talking about current pricing for '01/'02, and I see I'm going to have to do some actual work, because I haven't looked at that in some time and I don't remember exactly what the relationships are, although I'm confident I'll find that '01 is priced higher than '02, which is as it should be, yes?

On the other hand, your comment about demand makes sense on the Oregon side: I can see with my own eyes all those '07 Oregon PNs going out of the store, even though they're not up to snuff. So there it is, my complaint about the '07 Oregon quality/price relationship is wishful thinking: The stuff is selling, so why ever would the price go lower? I'd love to say something grouchy about the bamboozled wine buying public, but that would be equally pointless.

For under $20, the Willamette Valley Vineyards Whole Cluster Fermented 2007 is surely worth its ~$15 price tag. Cloudline 2007, for about the same price, is not, in my opinion.

Today in the age of the “celebrity flying winemaker” it is basically the grape variety or varieties themselves, where and how they are grown, the skill and knowledge of the vine-grower and winemaker, which will determine the “quality” of the wine. Why are we so obsessed with comparing wines made in France with those made in Oregon? (Or Old World vs. New World? Why can’t there just be the “best” Alsace Pinot Gris and the “best” Oregon Pinot Gris?) Surely with an endless pocket full of money anything is possible, even making an Alsace style Pinot Gris in Oregon. Duplicating the soil conditions, lay of the land, exact clones, more or less enclosing the vineyard under a climate controlled “greenhouse”, to duplicate the “exact” growing conditions. Why don’t we just allow the winemakers to try a produce the “best” wine for their “region”. In this regard, in today’s day and age, is there such a thing as a Pinot Gris “expert” or is there both an Alsace- Pinot Gris “expert” and Oregon -Pinot Gris “expert”.

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

I'm not obsessed with comparing Victor, but none of the Oregon versions of Pinot Gris I have tried came close to having the requisite varietal concentration for greatness that I have come to expect. I see similar comments about the "world class" Navarro Gewurztraminer in some corners of the internet, and while I like that wine as well, neither that nor Oregon Pinot Gris has gotten there yet. It's not a case of needing to taste like Pinot Gris from Alsace, but I think Oregon Pinot Gris just needs some more vine age to taste more like itself.

Rereading my post, I realized I didn't emphasize that I wasn't talking about pricing in general, but entry pricing. Oregon's top wines are comparatively inexpensive. That doesn't mean they are worth it- in every region I know there are expensive wines that aren't worth it, and are of lower quality of many lower priced wines. But in Burgundy (to keep to PN), there have historically been fairly well-priced entry level wines, the Bourgognes, Choreys, Cotes de Nuits Villages, and even village level bottlings from the prestige communes. One could try the Lafarge Bourgogne, love it, decide to spend a bit more for the village Volnay, then the Volnay VS, then to start thinking about splurging for the Clos des Chenes. My complaint is that so many of the Oregon wineries seem to start at $30+, and that is not conducive to me sticking my toe in the water.

Dale, FWIW I am in complete agreement. When we made our first excursion to Willamette Vly wineries about 8 years ago, I was shocked at the pricing I found at the wineries. Repeatedly, the only bottle within my price range (typically $20-30) was an entry-level wine that was, at best, simple and fruity, and at worst thin and uninteresting. All of those reserve and single vineyard bottlings went North of $50 and often were less appealing to my palate to boot than the "lowly" bottlings. Since that time, I've found a few producers whose pricing runs counter to the mainstream. Probably, one could say the exact same thing about the Napa Valley too, but I'm just more savvy about it.

Mark Lipton

I'm not an apologist for the Willamette Valley wine industry. But, I do perceive some generalizations here that disturb me just a tad. There are dozens of local winemakers making excellent wines at very reasonable price points. Just like there are in Burgundy, Bordeaux and Tuscany. And there were in Northern California when I lived there. I think that is just Linda's point. Those of you who just drop in on occasion don't get to these people. And many of them don't have wide distribution.

You've got some names - names you had before you got here. A few wines you may have tasted. There are hundreds of wines in the wine growing regions I mention above that you will never taste because they don't travel. Most wine made in the world is drunk just a few miles from where it's made. And yes, I realize that most folks are only interested in what they can obtain and drink themselves. Understandable.

I just think one should temper one's opinions of any wine growing region with more than a modicum of education. Some of the big producers here are way too proud of some of their wines. And I don't feel the area's reputation and winemakers should be tarnished by them.

(And I really hope I haven't misstated Linda's position here).

Over and out.

Some of the 2007 Pinots that I have been impressed with are Witness Tree, Four Graces, Raptor Ridge, J. Christopher, Domaine Coteau, Alloro, and Beacon Hill. These are their entry level wines that sell for $18-25. So far the majority of wines that I have tasted have been nice but just don't seem to have the depth that the last 3 vintages have had. Some of the producers listed here I have not had a chance to taste like St. Innocent and Evesham Wood. I think that this vintage is going to produce many more good wines compared to 1997. The last vintage that I remember the press trashing here was 2001. I never understood that because I found some many excellent Pinots. Many are still tasting very good.

Some of the 2007 Pinots that I have been impressed with are Witness Tree, Four Graces, Raptor Ridge, J. Christopher, Domaine Coteau, Alloro, and Beacon Hill. These are their entry level wines that sell for $18-25. So far the majority of wines that I have tasted have been nice but just don't seem to have the depth that the last 3 vintages have had. Some of the producers listed here I have not had a chance to taste like St. Innocent and Evesham Wood. I think that this vintage is going to produce many more good wines compared to 1997. The last vintage that I remember the press trashing here was 2001. I never understood that because I found some many excellent Pinots. Many are still tasting very good.

I've tasted everything you have - except the Alloro. And I'm in absolute agreement. Just tasted the Evesham Wood last week,it is quite good.

But, I do perceive some generalizations here that disturb me just a tad. There are dozens of local winemakers making excellent wines at very reasonable price points.(clip)I just think one should temper one's opinions of any wine growing region with more than a modicum of education

I'm not sure what is disturbing you. Everyone in this discussion has been clear they were talking of personal experiences. If the great $11 Oregon PN exists but we never taste it because the producer sells out and isn't interested in their wine "traveling", what difference does it make to me as a consumer?

In my life, without knowing any secret passwords or special handshakes, for $10 I can drink a decent red wine from Burgundy (yes, Pinot Noir!), Bordeaux, the Rhone Valley, the Languedoc, the Loire, California, Australia, several Spanish regions, several parts of Italy, etc. Don't remember one from Oregon. Under $20 in my market pretty much the only drinkable Oregon PN is Foris (Rogue) or A to Z. What's available in OR is immaterial to me. And what has whet my interest is very important in deciding what wine regions I might visit.For all I know (having never tasted their wines), North Dakota, Poland, and the Falklands might be great wine regions, but I'm not scheduling vacations without something to convince me.

I WANT to drink and like Oregon PN. But what I've tasted can be quite good, but seldom price competitive.