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Shiraz v Syrah

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Shiraz v Syrah

by Mike Pollard » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:46 pm

Given this months' focus and the discussion leading up to it I though I'd ask the question: What distinguishes Shiraz from Syrah in Australia? No, not from the grape variety point of view; they are after all the same. Rather why would a winery call a wine made from Shiraz grapes, Syrah? Is in a tip of the hat to Rhone wines? Or maybe the wine does not have enough Shiraz to be labeled as such? A marketing ploy? Can’t spell Shiraz?

Calling a wine Syrah is more common in Australia than I thought. A search of James Halliday’s online site for Syrah found 38 wineries and 52 wines from 24 regions! From a brief run through a few of Halliday’s tasting notes I found nothing to suggest that these wines look different from a generic Shiraz; but then Halliday’s notes are pretty short.

A quick look at the Wine Front site gave the same info. A bunch of wines but neither Mattinson nor Walsh made any comment on why a wine would be called Syrah, at least in the few TNs’ I looked at.

So what is the reason to call a wine Syrah in Australia?

Mike
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Robin Garr » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Good conversation-starter, Mike.

While it's not entirely fair, it seems to me that for most wine geeks IN THE U.S., "Shiraz" has come to stand for the kind of big, soft, fruity, oaky "blueberry-milkshake" blockbuster, most often from Barossa, that are famously imported by Grateful Palate and beloved by Parker.

Syrah, while the identical grape, is typically more elegant, balanced and refined, at least in traditional appellations of France, particularly before the advent of super-hot vintages like 2003.

Still speaking in broad generalities, Syrah from the US West Coast confuses the issue by falling between the extremes: Not as blowsy as the worst excesses of Oz, but rarely as refined as the best of France.

Yes, I realize that there are hundreds, even thousands, of exceptions to these rules and that this taxonomy is quite unfair. I do think that many wine geeks tend to characterize the grapes by the way they are most typically vinified in their home region.
Last edited by Robin Garr on Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fix my screwy use of "Shiraz" where I meant to say "Barossa"
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by wrcstl » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:43 pm

Pay attention to Robin, he knows of what he speaks. I have no shiraz in my cellar but have as many N Rhone Syrah that I can afford. It is the difference in being slapped or being kissed.
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mike Pollard » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:21 pm

Robin, Yes it is very clearly a shame that all Aussie Shiraz has been slapped with the same brush in the US, esp when most of the diversity that is Australian Shiraz has never reached these shores. And that is clearly demonstarted when you breakdown the regions in Australia that produce wines that carry the moniker Syrah. I have broken them down into State/Zone and then into region.

North East VIC:Rutherglen, King Valley, Beechworth, Alpine Valleys
Port Phillip VIC:Geelong, Mornington Peninsula, Yarra valley
Centra VIC: Upper Goulburn, Heathcote, Bendigo,
Western VIC: Grampians, Henty
Gippsland, VIC (Gippsland is a zone with no regions)

Fleurieu SA: McLaren Vale, Southern Fleurieu
Mount Lofty Ranges SA: Adelaide Hills

QLD: South Burnett, Granite Belt, Queensland Coastal

Southern NSW: Canberra District
Hunter Valley NSW: Hunter
Central Ranges NSW: Orange

South West Australia: Margaret River

Tasmania: Southern Tasmania

Its pretty obvious that VIC (state of Victoria) has the majority of regions in which Aussie wine makers feel a need (for whatever reason) to stick Syrah on their label: although I would hasten to add that the vast majority of wines from these regions are labeled Shiraz rather than Syrah.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Ian Sutton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:05 pm

Mike
Your (very useful/interesting) list demonstrates that whilst perhaps Syrah is generally used in cooler regions, some like Rutherglen and McLaren Vale are most defintitely warm/hot climate. I wouldn't expect a Northern Rhone lookalike from there.

Perhaps (a little provocative this comment) the Victoria/NSW vs. South Australia difference carries a little cultural statement (Victoria/NSW maybe seeing themselves more sophisticated and outward looking than South Australia...?).

There are some historical oddities - Balmoral Syrah (not exactly a shrinking violet of a wine), but it's been around so long, the reason is perhaps of less relevence.

It's certainly quite confused.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mark Kogos » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:08 pm

Ian, I believe there is more than a little truth around the market positioning that goes on between SA and Vic/ACT in particular and the choice of Syrah over Shiraz. In reality many of the top end cool climate shiraz I tuck away such as St Peters and Clonakilla all use the term Shiraz. I also suspect asked most serious collectors (after several bottles) and you may find that wines labeled Syrah may be regarded as slightly pretentious.

As a side note Canberra which produces one of Aus's top SV is actually in a separate territory, similar to the District of Columbia, known as the Australian Capital Territory. They are very sensitive around this point. :)
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Ian Sutton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:21 pm

Mark
Even more complexity to the naming - and yes that does sound very logical, that Shiraz is seen as fair dinkum Aussie, but Syrah - well that's just a bit poncey isn't it...? :lol:

Funny how quickly mataro seemed to get dropped in favour of Mourvedre though. Not quite the same context, but that change seemed to gather pace quickly and Mataro seems quite rarely used these days.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mike Pollard » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:44 pm

Mark Kogos wrote:Ian, I believe there is more than a little truth around the market positioning that goes on between SA and Vic/ACT in particular and the choice of Syrah over Shiraz. In reality many of the top end cool climate shiraz I tuck away such as St Peters and Clonakilla all use the term Shiraz. I also suspect asked most serious collectors (after several bottles) and you may find that wines labeled Syrah may be regarded as slightly pretentious.


Mark, You make a very good point and it is not dissimilar from how I view the subject. The regional differences in Shiraz in Australia should be able to stand on their own under that name. It simply makes establishing regional differences too difficult if the wineries adopt a different name for the grape.

Mark Kogos wrote:As a side note Canberra which produces one of Aus's top SV is actually in a separate territory, similar to the District of Columbia, known as the Australian Capital Territory. They are very sensitive around this point.


Having gone to ANU in Canberra in the early 70s - before a lot of the wine industry in theregion was established - I know what you mean. However the Zone Southern NSW is considered, at least by Halliday to be made up of Canberra District, Gundagai, Hilltops and Tumbarumba. And the Canberra District (Region) consider themselves to be made up of 3 subregions; 1) Murrumbateman/Yass, 2) Hall and the ACT, and 3) Bungendore/Lake George. Only 3 wineries - Kamberra Wine Company, Mount Majura Vineyard, and Pialligo Estate - are in the ACT proper. Places like Clonakilla are in Murrumbateman, which is in NSW. See map.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mike Pollard » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:51 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:Mark
Even more complexity to the naming - and yes that does sound very logical, that Shiraz is seen as fair dinkum Aussie, but Syrah - well that's just a bit poncey isn't it...? :lol:

Funny how quickly mataro seemed to get dropped in favour of Mourvedre though. Not quite the same context, but that change seemed to gather pace quickly and Mataro seems quite rarely used these days.

regards

Ian


Ian, You may surprised to learn, as was I, that Mataro seems to be making a comeback. We had dinner with two winemakers and one marketing guy in the Barossa last Nov and the term used was Mataro! So Tim Smith uses Mataro as do the guys at Teusner.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Salil » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:29 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:Mike
Your (very useful/interesting) list demonstrates that whilst perhaps Syrah is generally used in cooler regions, some like Rutherglen and McLaren Vale are most defintitely warm/hot climate.

Agree - yet the flagship wines from some of the cooler regions (Mount Langi & Seppelt St. Peters from Vic, Brokenwood Graveyard from NSW and Henschke and Wendouree from the cooler climate South Aus areas) all call themselves Shiraz.

And I'm surprised they even make Syrah/Shiraz in Tasmania - I didn't try any the last time I visited, but the examples of Cab and Merlot I had were incredibly underripe and green, and I'm not sure I'd run out to buy Shiraz from there, regardless of what they called it.

BTW, glad to hear about the Mataro comeback. Just managed to get my hands on some older Wendouree Shiraz/Mataro (nope, no European-wannabe names there ;)) that I may break into this month for the 'wine focus'.
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:55 pm

Big fan of Kilikaloon, so might open the Lackey!
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mark Kogos » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:57 am

Salil Benegal wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote:Mike
Your (very useful/interesting) list demonstrates that whilst perhaps Syrah is generally used in cooler regions, some like Rutherglen and McLaren Vale are most defintitely warm/hot climate.

Agree - yet the flagship wines from some of the cooler regions (Mount Langi & Seppelt St. Peters from Vic, Brokenwood Graveyard from NSW and Henschke and Wendouree from the cooler climate South Aus areas) all call themselves Shiraz.

Salil, you are clearly a man of good taste. To a tee, these are all excellent examples of well made elegant Aus shiraz without needing to spend major dollars on the likes of Grange and HoG. I was luck enough to have a 98 Brokenwood last year care of a friend of mine. This had developed into a smooth soft glorious wine. Drunk young they tend to be rather tannic but around the 10 year mark they really come into their own.
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mark Kogos » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:02 am

Mike Pollard wrote:Having gone to ANU in Canberra in the early 70s - before a lot of the wine industry in theregion was established - I know what you mean. However the Zone Southern NSW is considered, at least by Halliday to be made up of Canberra District, Gundagai, Hilltops and Tumbarumba. And the Canberra District (Region) consider themselves to be made up of 3 subregions; 1) Murrumbateman/Yass, 2) Hall and the ACT, and 3) Bungendore/Lake George. Only 3 wineries - Kamberra Wine Company, Mount Majura Vineyard, and Pialligo Estate - are in the ACT proper. Places like Clonakilla are in Murrumbateman, which is in NSW. See map.

Mike

Mike I stand corrected. I am curious to know if you get any of the Clonakilla up there. I am assuming you are based in the US. If you do and you see some of the 07, I am desperately trying to track some down. It is all sold out down here. Friends of mine have asked the winemaker but to no avail.
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Mike Pollard » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:56 am

Mark Kogos wrote: I am curious to know if you get any of the Clonakilla up there. I am assuming you are based in the US. If you do and you see some of the 07, I am desperately trying to track some down. It is all sold out down here. Friends of mine have asked the winemaker but to no avail.


Mark, I'm in San Diego. The Hilltops and the Shiraz Viognier for 2004-2006 are both available over here. Nothing listed for 2007. The Clonakilla website has the 2007 Hilltops listed as still available.

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Bob Ross » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:19 pm

Mike, your question reminded me of some work I've done trying to figure out the history of the name of the grape in Australia; here's the current status of my "researches". A couple of wine historians have indicated they are interested in the issue, and may contribute in the future.

The French have done extensive study of the word "Syrah" and its clones, but haven't published their results as far as I know.

This is the text of a letter I've sent to the Australian historians; I've also contacted Jancis Robinson challenging her explanation of the ""As Shiraz (an understandable Strinisation of Macarthur's 'Scyras' .." for which she had no documentation, only as she wrote "speculation".

Best Bob

I would appreciate some help in understanding the history of the name of the Syrah grape. The OED teaches:

[< French syrah (20th cent.), earlier sirrah, {dag}sirac, {dag}syras (1845 or earlier), {dag}scyras (1827 or earlier), of unknown origin. Cf. earlier PETITE SIRAH n. Cf. also slightly earlier SHIRAZ n. 2 and discussion at that entry, which reads: The French name for the grape is syrah (scyras, sirrah are also found). The Eng. form is app. an alteration of this, influenced by the belief that the vine was brought (by Crusaders) from Iran and is therefore to be identified with that from which Shiraz (sense 1a) is made.]

I have been able to find an 1826 reference to "Scyras" in French, predating the OED by a year. James Busby referred to this source in his on visits to principle vineyards of Spain and France, published in 1834; Busby used the "Scyras" name. Macaurthur used the "Scyras" name in his notes on the Botanic Garden in the 1840s, and I've found a third 1850's reference to "Scyras" in another Australian source.

The first reference I've found to "Shiraz" in English is in Cyrus Redding in 1833, and repeated in his 1851`edition on grapes and grape vines. "Hermitage is now produced from the Scyras, or Shiraz grape, supposed to have been originally Persian, the grape of Shiraz being the finest in the world."

The first reference I've found to "Hermitage" to describe the grape [rather than the wine] is in Shaw's magnificent study of 1863, and I suppose it appeafrs in the earlier edition of 1861 as well.

The first reference in English to "Syrah" I've found is in the 1901 US Government Printing Office report on the 1893 Columbian Exposition.

I'm interested in a number of points:

1. When did Australians first use the word "Shiraz"? Did they pick it up from Redding, or was it their own pronunciation of "Scyras".

2. When did the French change the name of the grape from "Scyras" to "Syrah". [I was surprised to learn that it was a 20th Century coinage.]



On the second point, I've found an 1856 reference in French, so the OED is wrong by at least 50 years. I've also prepared a brief summary of what I've learned about "Shiraz" in Australia. [Please note I'm focusing on the name of the grape, not its actual history -- I'm up to date, for example, on the DNA evidence.



Any help would be deeply appreciated.



Regards, Bob





Timeline of "Shiraz" in Australia.



OED:



[< French syrah (20th cent.), earlier sirrah, {dag}sirac, {dag}syras (1845 or earlier), {dag}scyras (1827 or earlier), of unknown origin. Cf. earlier PETITE SIRAH n. Cf. also slightly earlier SHIRAZ n. 2 and discussion at that entry.]



A variety of black grape used in winemaking, originating in the French Rhône region and now planted in most wine-growing countries; the red wine made from these grapes; = SHIRAZ n. 2.



[Shiraz] 2. The name of a variety of grape from which red wine is made, grown orig. in the Rhône valley of France; the wine made from this grape.



The French name for the grape is syrah (scyras, sirrah are also found). The Eng. form is app. an alteration of this, influenced by the belief that the vine was brought (by Crusaders) from Iran and is therefore to be identified with that from which Shiraz (sense 1a) is made.



______________________



1817 Under the papers listed as "Horticultural Correspondence and Lists of Plants 1817-1873" is the "List of the plants remaining alive, on board the Lord Eldon". The first plants mentioned were headed "Vines" and in this list was Syracuse and also Hermitage - both old names for Shiraz. (I don't know why both names appeared, sixth and eleventh respectively on the List). Norrie.



1826 In the (Enologie Franfaise, a very minute and correct account of the French vineyards, published in 1826, the name of this grape is spelt Scyras; and it is stated that, according to the tradition of the neighbourhood, the plant was originally brought from Shiraz in Persia, by one of the hermits of the mountain. Busby, Journal, 1823.



1827 OED {dag}scyras (1827 or earlier), of unknown origin. Reference?



1833 History and Description of Modern Wines, by Cyrus Redding 1833. "Hermitage is now produced from the Scyras, or Shiraz grape, supposed to have been originally Persian, the grape of Shiraz being the finest in the world." Page 20.



1834 JOURNAL .... JAMES BUSBY, ESQ. Published 1834, Smith, Elder. The best red wines of Hermitage are made exclusively from one variety, and the white wines from two varieties ; but in the district generally a much greater number of varieties are cultivated. The Red Grape is named the Ciras *. ... Page 108.



1834 Gentlemans Magazine, London: "Hermitage is grown from the Shiraz grape of Persia."



1844: From Sir William Macarthur's "Letters on the Vine" James Halliday extracted the following: "Scyras - An excellent grape and promises to be at least equally valuable for red wine as the Verdeilho [sic] is for white. This is the sort said to be chiefly cultivated on the celebrated hill of Hermitage."



1851 A History and Description of Modern Wine, by Cyrus Redding. "Hermitage, as before observed, is produced from the Scyras, or Shiraz grape." Page 48.



1861: A.C. Kelly, The Vine in Australia, refers to "Scyras". John Wilson.

1864: John Wilson's history of Carl Meyerhoff's Vineyard: "In 1864 J. A. Zimmermann had advertised for sale nine different wines, 'either by glass or bottle including Tokay, Riesling, Brown Muscat, Aucarot, Shiraz, Malbec, White Muscat etc'." [Not confirmed as "Shiraz" or some other name.]



1867: A.C. Kelly, Wine Growing in Australia. He had then changed his tune, referring to "Sirrah", or "Scyras". John Wilson.



1889: The Official Catalogue of the Exhibits, Melbourne, Centennial International Exhibit. "It may be observed in passing that, as in the French vineyards, the phylloxera devastation has caused an extensive uprooting of old vines and replanting of new cuttings, around Oporto, from California and Australia. The Mustang, or native vine of Arizona, and the Shiraz and Carbinet vines from Australia, are among those introduced on the Douro."



1904 Romeo Bragato, New Zealand's first Government Viticulturist, refers to the grape in 1905 as both Hermitage and Black Hermitage, with the name Shiraz often following in brackets.



1908 Hadbook of South Australia, David John Gordon: "It was probably from Mr. Bushby's collection that South Australians obtained the varieties named, as well as the Shiraz."



1966 Courier-Mail (Brisbane) 25 Oct. 2/10 "He thought his 1952 shiraz was of such vast quality there was no bottle in a restaurant cellar to equal it." [OED example.]



1986 Robinson in Vines, Grapes and Wines: "As Shiraz (an understandable Strinisation of Macarthur's 'Scyras' .."
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Bob Ross » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:50 pm

Here's some further correspondence with David Dunston in Australia including is response to the previous letter in this sequence. I'm too lazy to put the three letters in chrono order, but they read pretty well as is.

I was taken with David's comment: "The problem seems to be that Australian winemakers (even today) feel pretty well entitled to call their wine whatever they like in order to sell it. "

Best, Bob

RE: "Shiraz" in Australia‏
From: Robert Ross (robcurtross@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sun 10/14/07 12:24 PM
To: David Dunstan (daviddunstan@bearpurt.com); Bob Ross (robcurtross@hotmail.com)

Dear John,

Thanks for an interesting email -- you've given me much to think about. In the meantime, I found a very interesting collection of articles bound into [apparently] a single volume. The Journal seems to be devoted to grape growers and winemakers -- there is a list of 20 or so members which is augmented by a handwritten list of a dozen or more others. There are some fascinating debates about prices, pests, etc. Both de Castella and Couslandt seem to be knowledgeable grape growers, so that one may conclude that "Shiraz" had some currency in Victoria in 1883.

In any event, de Castella used "Syra" and "Shiraz", one of the first uses of both words I've found in Australian sources.

1883: Journal: Victoria Board of Vinticulture. "If the Pinot of Burgundy, the Syra or Shiraz of Hermitage, the Carbenet of Bordeaux, and two or three more were eliminated, the reputation of those wines would be gone. Fortunately for Australia the founders of her wine industry were men of the world, who imported their plants from the districts of Europe producing the best wines. Their plantations were entirely composed of fine cépages, and these were gradually and almost exclusively propagated all over the colonies—an invaluable boon for the future. At the present moment the red grapes above mentioned are the most cultivated in Australia, especially the Syra of Hermitage, a most valuable cépage." Paper read at Royal Colonial Institute, London, by Hubert [Paul?] de Castella. [St. Hubert]

Also in this paper: "The Government of the Cape Colony, as I find from South African blue-books, has secured the services of an able viticulturist from Germany, Baron Carl von Babo, who has been, placed in charge of the famous Coustantia Estate, now a viticultural school. A few yearß hence a transformation may be expected in the production of that colony, whose wine industry dates from 1653. Baron von Babo, in his last report, advocates wines of light colour, of little spirit, and much bouquet; and recommends the cultivation of fine vines, particularly that of the Syra of Hermitage." Paper read at Royal Colonial Institute, London, by Hubert [Paul?] de Castella. [St. Hubert]

1883: Journal: Victoria Board of Vinticulture. From our limited observations it would appear that the following grapes are those which are most addicted to the Oidiuin—viz., the Black Spanish, the Black Hambro', Shiraz or Hermitage, Red Moscatel, Black Moscatel, White Moscatel or Frontignan, and Yellow Safrina. F. COUSLANDT, Chateau Tahbilk Vineyard.


Also, I found another Scyras reference:

1852: Australia as it is: Its Settlements, Farms, and Gold Fields, by Francis Lancelott. Excellent wine has been made in the colonies of New South Wales and Victoria from the following varieties: for red wine, Scyras, Malbec, Carbenet, Grenache, Carignan, and the Pineau-gris ; for white wine, La Folle, Aucarot, the Tokays, and the Verdeilho.

***

This has been a very interesting bit of research -- I hadn't realized how rich the history of wine is in the three wine producing states, and really how different it seems to be. I've been able to find a copy of your book at a used book dealer here, and expect it in a couple of days.

I'm also very impressed with how much information one can obtain from Google books, with new volumes coming on line daily. I'm using a neat little program called zotero to collect the various references.

I'm off to re-read and reflect on your letter. Thank you so much. Regards, Bob



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:04:08 -0700
From: daviddunstan@bearpurt.com
To: robcurtross@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: "Shiraz" in Australia

Dear Bob,

I use the State Library of Victoria and the National Library of Australia. The SLV, in particular, is a remarkable digest of 19th century literature on wine and everything else. The British Library should also be an important source for you as well. Their catalogues are available on line. Books and newspapers and manuscripts are still my main sources as a C19th historian.

What is important here is surely industry and public acceptance of a common terminology. When did it occur? I suspect only quite recently and even now not completely across the world. Globalisation and wine. When? An interesting one.

With shiraz (capitalised or lower case?) we may ask:

When did Australian vignerons and others identify it as an important variety? (I think quite early, time of Blaxland and the Hunter Valley Vignerons of the 1830-40s)

So when did it become important to identify it correctly as a grape and as a wine (Again, I think quite early, in which case it can have a number of synonyms for everyday and commercial use).

But when did Australians hit upon a common identifier? (Harder to answer because of the geographical and political differences of the three colonies that produced wine in quantity (Vic,SA and NSW) and the general confusion of what to call the variety in territory other than its celebrated one of origin, e.g. Hermitage). The trade to this day exults in a multiplicity of confusing names for wine - just look at the D'Arenberg labels.

Are writers (Tovey, Vizetelly, Wilkinson and others) really to be regarded as law givers in this instance? I don't think so.

Another complicating factor is the European disinclination to identify varieties. You cite Scyras but what did they (the French or anyone else) really call the variety, if anything? Isn't Scyras sort a technical term nobody usues in real life? Shiraz and Scyras: both are variations of the same thing like anglicised versions of Russian or Chinese words, Peking/Beijing.

Yet another point that should be made is the that French progressively (from the late C19th on) grew annoyed at the use by Australians and others of generic descriptors of wine regarded by the French as place names and originators of special styles of wine (notwithstanding, the fact that it prostituted them itself, e.g. Burgundy made from Mediterranean and Algerian wine and sold to the British).

The most pertinent in this instance for us is Hermitage but there were others (again Bugundy - in Australia made from Shiraz - was the point at issue for France in the trade wars NOT (French) Shiraz or Hermitage. Legal and international disputation from the time of the Treaty of Madrid (1891 from memory).This is an issue that can hardly be set aside from yours. Continues until 1984 and Australian aquiescence to EEC standards on generic descriptors.

best wishes,

David


On 13/10/2007, David Dunstan <daviddunstan@bearpurt.com> wrote:
Dear Bob Ross,

This is a very useful speculation/investigation and I am surprised that it does not seem to have been done before. I cannot offer an immediate reaction. All those terms you cite were current in the C19th and there is the complicating factor of the variety being known as Hermitage. It would be useful to trawl through the major C19th Australian authorities. Most of my work has involved these and C19th newspapers. The show records are also interesting and I can go back to some of those with a bit of time. The problem seems to be that Australian winemakers (even today) feel pretty well entitled to call their wine whatever they like in order to sell it.

with best wishes,


David Dunstan

also at Monash University

david.dunstan@arts.monash.edu.au
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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Bill Spohn » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:35 am

wrcstl wrote:Pay attention to Robin, he knows of what he speaks. I have no shiraz in my cellar but have as many N Rhone Syrah that I can afford. It is the difference in being slapped or being kissed.
Walt


I like that, Walt. I think an Australian would probably have said it was the difference between being groped or kicked in the goolies, but same idea....

I am certainly with you on Rhones - had a 96 Crozes last night!
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Peter May

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Peter May » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:44 pm

I was interested in note in New Zealand last month Shiraz being pronounced without the final zed, thus sounding like sheer-rah and getting close to Syrah, sear-ah
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David Creighton

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by David Creighton » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:18 pm

peter has it i think. there are many languages in which 's' has the effect in english of 'sh'. to that, drop the final consonant - not at all unusual in many languages and 'shiraz' is pronounced exactly the same as 'syrah'. most of the people who originally spoke the word, spoke it identically. it was how they 'spelled' it for their home audience that caused the confusion and the ultimate difference in pronounciation.
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Sue Courtney

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Re: Shiraz v Syrah

by Sue Courtney » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:22 pm

Peter May wrote:I was interested in note in New Zealand last month Shiraz being pronounced without the final zed, thus sounding like sheer-rah and getting close to Syrah, sear-ah

That wouldn't have been John Hancock, would it. He always calls it 'Shirrah', which to your English upbringing could sound to you like "Sheerrah".

Some of the points brought up in this thread sound familiar. I'm sure we've disccused somewhere here before.
Oh yes - found it in the thread "Timeline of the name "Shiraz" in Australia."
Link here - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11401

Cheers,
Sue

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