Aging...or hoarding?

[David M. Bueker]

They are usually the times when I am thinking about moving to the Canadian Rockies. Unfortunately the wine import duty would bankrupt me.

I find this discussion interesting. I am an 'aspiring' wine collector. ('Aspiring' because although I've been into wine for many years I have been constantly moving and have not yet established much of a 'cellar').

Sometimes I wish I was in your situation Rahsaan (the no cellar situation, not the constantly moving). I really love having access to a wine array of wine choices for my every day or special occasion consumption, but having a cellar has of course led to filling the cellar.

Should you ever feel the need to relieve yourself of that terrible burden, David, I'm sure that you could find no shortage of people here willing to help you out

There are actually two things I have no more space for: wine and compact discs.

Parenthood has been good for curtailing my wine acquisition, even with the mission of acquiring enough birth-year ('04) wines to celebrate every birthday to his majority and beyond. Add books to your list, though, and I'll cop to it. I've often been heard to say that I hate to shop... unless it's for wine, books or music.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

A good friend of mine says she needs to set up shifts in her wine cellar. People are assigned 8 hour slots to go down to the cellar and drink. It's the only way she will ever clear the thing out.

I am beginning to think that is not such a bad idea.

Let me know when you start signing people up for their shifts.

I'll happily sign up for the first shift. And second, third...

Some good responses and it's reassuring to see people talking of 200, 300, 400 bottle cellars, which show that there's some control. It's when it gets into the thousands, that you sense it's all got horribly out of control.

I like the act of cellaring, of waiting for stuff to age (in this age of instant gratification). I also enjoy having a choice of styles to drink, depending on food or mood or the preference of guests (or the preference of the brains of the operation!).

The hoarding or bargain hunting mentality must be watched though

regards

Ian

Ian, I was doing quiet well on this thread until I read your concept of control. Having roared past 1500 and well on the way to 2000, I tend to view my cellar a little like the toaster in the business lounge at the airport. You put bread in at one end and a couple of minutes later out pops toast at the other end. Since most of the reds and whites I like drinking really need a minimum of 10-12 years in the cellar, and I go through at the very least 3-4 bottles a week given people invite themselves over for dinner, to drink what I really enjoy requires a certain critical mass. Hence the irrefutable logic of the proposal suggests a minimum size of somewhere between 1500-2000 or at least that the argument I have been running with the wife for years.

Mark
You convinced her. I see no problem

It was a hard fight to get over 200, but now, just short of 300, I think resistance is waning

What's nice now is that we get through 3-4 bottles a week. When we used to work around the country, it was down to a bottle a week.

I'm sure there's a logical equilibrium, where buying new stuff matches nicely against the old stuff being drunk. We're not in that state, but have good access to mature bottles via auction and a good alternative source. Topping up with mature bottles works well for us and I suspect keeps numbers down a little.

The recent problem has been too few "quaffers" but a recent very enticing sale on W. Australian wine has got us some good maturing wines at quaffing prices.

regards

Ian

Ian

I have always liked the toaster analogy for a number of reasons. Once you hit your critical mass position and the age of the wines are where you want them then so long as you continue to top up as much as you drink, you can drink perfectly aged wines off into the sunset. Ok there may also be a bit of an addiction problem going on here judging by the mounts of wine magazines and books around the house but whenever I get too worried about the addiction problem I can always find solice in a well aged bottle of riesling or Barolo.

Once you hit your critical mass position and the age of the wines are where you want them then so long as you continue to top up as much as you drink, you can drink perfectly aged wines off into the sunset..

That assumes the new bottles will need only as much time to age as you will give them according to your rate of consumption.

Some good responses and it's reassuring to see people talking of 200, 300, 400 bottle cellars, which show that there's some control. It's when it gets into the thousands, that you sense it's all got horribly out of control.

Ian

My count hovers around 150 or so. Obviously, I need to buy more wine.

Once you hit your critical mass position and the age of the wines are where you want them then so long as you continue to top up as much as you drink, you can drink perfectly aged wines off into the sunset..

That assumes the new bottles will need only as much time to age as you will give them according to your rate of consumption.

Ah, I fully agree. This refinement is going to be used once we go past the 2000 mark. There is a second reason for a large cellar in my view and that is retirement. A few years ago I went and stayed at a B&B run by the parents of some friends of mine. Whilst the home was lovely, my friend's father basically drank 2 buck chuck the whole time we were there. I realised that would be my idea of retirement in hell. Hence I am more than happy to pass on cases of wine to my children when I kick the moral coil so long as I am drinking nice old Bordeaux in the retirement home.

Some good responses and it's reassuring to see people talking of 200, 300, 400 bottle cellars, which show that there's some control. It's when it gets into the thousands, that you sense it's all got horribly out of control.

Ian

My count hovers around 150 or so. Obviously, I need to buy more wine.

I'm sure we can all offer buying tips!

I've often been heard to say that I hate to shop... unless it's for wine, books or music.

You'd fit into our household very well, Mark. We spent last Saturday in Bozeman, had lunch at a wine bar/restaurant, went to an Italian grocery where we purchased more wine, went to a new and used book/CD/record album store and dropped a ton of cash, went to a new-to-us wine shop on the way out of town and purchased another half case.

And darn it, he had to order some of it, so we'll have to go back to Bozeman again this Saturday.

We are, however, mainly drinking from Stuart's excellent cellar. (Yes, yes, my life is so hard. But somebody has to live it.)

Cynthia, how far is Bozeman from your home?

Okay that settles it. I don't have nearly enough wine. I'm going out to take care of that TODAY...

What a bunch of enablers you people are!

Okay that settles it. I don't have nearly enough wine. I'm going out to take care of that TODAY...

What a bunch of enablers you people are!

We're here for you, Bob. Never fear.

Mark Lipton
(It's only a problem if you think it is)

Cynthia, how far is Bozeman from your home?

About 83 miles. Depending on the ice/snow in the Homestake Pass, it takes anywhere between 1.25 and 1.5 hours. Just a little hop, but so worth it! While Butte is charming in many unexpected ways, Bozeman is charming and has several amenities that Butte doesn't.

Okay that settles it. I don't have nearly enough wine. I'm going out to take care of that TODAY...

Bob, before I moved to Montana where the great cellar is, I owned 14 bottles. Down from a high of 47. I am unsure of precisely what we have now, but it's somewhere between 900 and 1200 bottles. We really shouldn't be buying any more wine. But since we don't have any sparklers cellared for some reason, we needed that half case of Bugey-Cerdon.

[Jenise]

However, I don't really collect other things and on the contrary I enjoy clearing out my spaces and throwing away as much as possible.

This would be me, too. Both literally and figuratively I have neither an attic nor a basement, and I have a very strong desire to never need either. My wine collection exists because I want a wine for every occasion and have a taste for the kind of wine that rewards patience. Too, the aspect of study and discussion is a considerable attraction and the friendships that have resulted from same demand yet more breadth and depth. Per yesterday's inventory update, I have just over 2000 bottles (not to brag, but to refute Ian's earlier claim about quantity), and with consumption at about 40 bottles/month (we entertain a lot) that seems about right.

My wine collection exists because I want a wine for every occasion and have a taste for the kind of wine that rewards patience. Too, the aspect of study and discussion is a considerable attraction and the friendships that have resulted from same demand yet more breadth and depth. Per yesterday's inventory update, I have just over 2000 bottles (not to brag, but to refute Ian's earlier claim about quantity), and with consumption at about 40 bottles/month (we entertain a lot) that seems about right.

Well said. I have about 1300 bottles, and have reasons for owning each one. I open far more wines that I wish I had aged further than those I wish I had drunk sooner. I like mature wines, I like tasting a wine over the course of its evolution, and I enjoy having wines to match with a particular food (and for that matter I enjoy having wines so I can participate in themed tastings).

However, I don't really collect other things and on the contrary I enjoy clearing out my spaces and throwing away as much as possible.

This would be me, too.

Smart woman!

with consumption at about 40 bottles/month (we entertain a lot) that seems about right.

Sounds like fun, and a good way to keep wine cycling in and out!

[Jenise]

I open far more wines that I wish I had aged further than those I wish I had drunk sooner. I like mature wines, I like tasting a wine over the course of its evolution, and I enjoy having wines to match with a particular food (and for that matter I enjoy having wines so I can participate in themed tastings).

Well said back atcha.

Well said. I have about 1300 bottles, and have reasons for owning each one. I open far more wines that I wish I had aged further than those I wish I had drunk sooner. I like mature wines, I like tasting a wine over the course of its evolution, and I enjoy having wines to match with a particular food (and for that matter I enjoy having wines so I can participate in themed tastings).

As you probably recall, Dale, I once did the math in response to one of those "you have too much wine" posts. If you want to drink wine that's been aged an average of 15 years and you consume on average 5 bottles from your cellar per week (conservative, I realize), you would need a cellar of 3900 bottles simply to achieve steady-state consumption. As my life attests to, failing to achieve that "critical mass" results in a gradual decline in your cellar size. Cellar size as of 9/04: 600+ bottles; cellar size currently: ~450 bottles. Jean somehow doesn't view this trend with the same alarm that I do, though

Mark Lipton

Not meaning to criticise anyone

I can understand much of the argument for cellar size in relation to cellaring duration and consumption.

There are two factors that help us drive down the volumes we hold:

a) making a place for short term / quaffing wines or recognising that in the case of cases, we may drink 3 or 4 whilst still very young(i.e. nowhere near our believed maturity "window"). The short-termers may be turned over very quickly, with maybe just 1 or 2 older wines consumed per week.

b) Access to aged bottles. We're very lucky with access to older wines from a trusted source, but I also do put some effort into watching the auctions. Without this, I'd have a relatively immature cellar and be constantly drinking bottles earlier than I'd prefer.

I suppose the 3rd is recognising nothing is a must buy - ever. Ok there are bargains that are almost impossible to turn down, or wines you really want to have in the cellar and to drink. There are always alternatives though.

Keeping verticals of wines is always of interest, but I think suggests something of the collector mentality - especially when the wine is bought "to keep the vertical going".

The other things we do, is often buy single bottles or pairs, with 12 bottle case purchases of a single wine very rare (and six-packs relatively infrequent). I'm still treating wine as an exploration and put value on variety. If I tried to satisfy this via case purchases, we'd be beyond 1000 bottles for certain.

regards

Ian

[David M. Bueker]

Utilizing auctions is certainly a way to avoid cellaring wine for an extended period. I have personally chosen to (mostly) avoid auctions due to unknown provenance. That has driven me to cellar wines that I think are truly ageworthy (e.g. Bordeaux, Burgundy, certain German Rieslings) for an extended period of time.

Despite the size of my cellar there are two things that I am not happy with:
- the number of early drinking wines that I own but do not really like all that much (various foolish purhcases over the years)
- the lack of early drinking wines that I do like.

I'm trying (somewhat but not totally successfully) to slow my buying pace & focus on early drinking wines that are things I like to drink (e.g. Cotes du Rhone, basic Bourgogne, German Riesling QbA/Kabinett).

Solid case purchases for other than the really good early drinking wines are over for me. I used to do that a lot.