WTN: My complaints with Burgaud Morgon

2007 J-M Burgaud Morgon Côte du Py VV
This was my first time with Burgaud and I must say it was not my favorite style of Morgon. It was savory and herbal yet deep dark and tannic showing the thick grains and structure from what I gather was the oak aging. And for my Morgon tastes, it was showing too much sturdy tannic structure.

Nothing wrong with this wine, but I came to the region via Foillard, Lapierre and Thévenet and their more exotic and fragrant versions are what has captured my heart. Of course I have no way of knowing which is more 'typical' as both styles are likely marked by winemaking practices. But maybe I'd like the 'basic' Burgaud Côte du Py better for what I presume must be greater freshness?

Thanks for the report - will see if I can find other Morgons that are not Gang of Five but have some promising endorsement, like Jenny & François, etc.

Perhaps you're drinking this bottling too young? Or do you think the wine lacks the fruit to support aging?

Perhaps you're drinking this bottling too young? Or do you think the wine lacks the fruit to support aging?

I don't think it lacks the fruit to support aging. It is very well balanced and is a very 'nice' wine. I am sure many people would like it now.

It will probably display greater complexity with age and I might like it more then. My only complaint is that it is not my style and not what I want from Morgon, given my preferences for these other producers. But, too each his own.

In general, I have not been convinced by these structured and 'Burgundian' gamays because they invite too much of a comparison with Burgundy and in that case I'd rather have Burgundy. For gamay, I'd rather have fragrant fresh joy and exuberance flowing from the bottle. But that's me.

In general, I have not been convinced by these structured and 'Burgundian' gamays because they invite too much of a comparison with Burgundy and in that case I'd rather have Burgundy. For gamay, I'd rather have fragrant fresh joy and exuberance flowing from the bottle. But that's me.

Me too. A spade should be a spade.

That's fair. I still haven't sampled a significant-enough amount of Beaujolais to take a stand either way, but it's always interesting to get a sense of others POV and why.

That's fair. I still haven't sampled a significant-enough amount of Beaujolais to take a stand either way, but it's always interesting to get a sense of others POV and why.

Yes, other supporters of this wine are encouraging me to give it more time as they feel it is a wine that demands some aging. That may be so, although I am still not convinced that it is my favorite style.

[David M. Bueker]

Rahsaan - remember that some of those "other supporters" are likely to age any and everything, too often past its best.

It may not be your style, or (as was also pointed out by the same "other supporters") the importer's preferences may not be your own.

That's fair. I still haven't sampled a significant-enough amount of Beaujolais to take a stand either way, but it's always interesting to get a sense of others POV and why.

Yes, other supporters of this wine are encouraging me to give it more time as they feel it is a wine that demands some aging. That may be so, although I am still not convinced that it is my favorite style.

I like the basic Burgaud Morgon but understand both your description of the version you had and your comments, particularly in your comparison with Marcel Lapierre's Morgon or indeed the wines of the other members of the Gang of Five - which are nevertheless all quite different from each other.

As a result I am aging my 2005 Burgaud's [having tried a couple] but already drinking my 2005 Lapierres slowly.

I don't get a Burgundian feeling from Burgaud's wines at least not like the Jadot single vineyard MaVs of Chateau des Jacques which are made the Burgundian way. I really enjoy these, particularly Rochegres and Grand Carquelin - currently drinking some 02s. I enjoy these with some age but if you have had them and don't rate them either it is probably as you have surmised: you prefer Beaujolais to be made the Jules Chauvet way.

Tonight my 07 Lapierre Morgon goes to the scaffold, cut off in the prime of youth...

I don't get a Burgundian feeling from Burgaud's wines at least not like the Jadot single vineyard MaVs of Chateau des Jacques which are made the Burgundian way. I really enjoy these, particularly Rochegres and Grand Carquelin - currently drinking some 02s. I enjoy these with some age but if you have had them and don't rate them either it is probably as you have surmised: you prefer Beaujolais to be made the Jules Chauvet way.

No, not quite as stern as the MaV of Jadot which are literal ringers for Burgundy. I found them interesting but would probably never get around to drinking them on my own. The Jules Chauvet style is not the only thing I appreciate in Beaujolais. Vissoux and Coudert are two properties that I am very fond of and they are very different from the Lapierre Foillard style. Regardless, all of this goes to show how rich Beaujolais is with good, diverse - and affordable - wines.

It may not be your style, or (as was also pointed out by the same "other supporters") the importer's preferences may not be your own.

Yes, someone who works for the importer of my bottle says he prefers to age the Burgaud while also saying he drinks more Lapierre.

Who knows.

But as always, there is so much wine out there that my money will not likely go to Burgaud in the near future until someone (somehow) convinces me otherwise.

Rahsaan - remember that some of those "other supporters" are likely to age any and everything, too often past its best.

Who is to say what is best, David? Presumably, the people aging those wines do it because they like the end result; if not, are they likely to continue the practice?

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Rahsaan - remember that some of those "other supporters" are likely to age any and everything, too often past its best.

Who is to say what is best, David? Presumably, the people aging those wines do it because they like the end result; if not, are they likely to continue the practice?

Mark - it's more a case of indiscriminate aging based on type rather than any track record for actual improvement. I'm as guilty on some occasions, and it's a bad cellaring habit I am trying to break. David from Switzerland has sometimes spoken of the all too common case of wines that change, but do not actually improve with cellaring. More and more I am moving to his side of the aisle on the subject.

Mark - it's more a case of indiscriminate aging based on type rather than any track record for actual improvement. I'm as guilty on some occasions, and it's a bad cellaring habit I am trying to break. David from Switzerland has sometimes spoken of the all too common case of wines that change, but do not actually improve with cellaring. More and more I am moving to his side of the aisle on the subject.

Again, though, aren't you begging the question of what, exactly, constitutes improvement in a wine and how general the agreement is on this subject? Given the fact that our sensitivity to and appreciation of various flavors/odors vary so widely, I suspect that a wine that I find softened with delightful tertiary elements might constitute a "tired, lifeless" corpse among wine lovers who are accustomed to young New World red wines. So, has the wine improved or not? Taken to one extreme, I have encountered one particularly dogmatic individual who claimed that no wine improves with age and that oxidation always leads to detrimental change in wine. On the other extreme, we both know of a very charming former contributor to WLDG who regularly consumes and waxes poetic over wines that you or I might very well consider to be near-dead or totally dead. I see a full spectrum of responses and standards with no clear consensus.

That said, I'm no longer cellaring my Beajolais Nouveau.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Mark - you do know that there is never common ground on this unless everyone shares a common set of taste buds. that said I have had more than enough dead to me (and dead to the group) wines over the last several years to dissuade me from extensive (in terms of bottle quantities and time) cellaring of a number of different wines.

Just a thought...why is my contention any less valid than yours? You have frequently taken exception to my thoughts in this area. 99% of the wine in the world is made to be drunk young. The other 1% is a guessing game.

Mark - you do know that there is never common ground on this unless everyone shares a common set of taste buds. that said I have had more than enough dead to me (and dead to the group) wines over the last several years to dissuade me from extensive (in terms of bottle quantities and time) cellaring of a number of different wines.

Fair enough, David. The ultimate arbiter of whether a wine is worth aging is whether you benefit in any way by doing so.

Just a thought...why is my contention any less valid than yours? You have frequently taken exception to my thoughts in this area. 99% of the wine in the world is made to be drunk young. The other 1% is a guessing game.

Have I? If so, it has not been intentional, I think. Perhaps this is a topic on which we have irreconcilable differences. And what exactly is my contention? That it is dangerous to prejudge whether a wine is worth aging? If so, my justification for taking this position is that I have on several occasions been surprised, once or twice very surprised, by the ability of a wine to age well beyond whatever expectation I had for it, and in several cases well beyond what the winemaker expected of it. If by my contention you mean the proposition that all wine is worth aging, please rest assured that that is not my belief at all. Perhaps my responses are colored by my decades-long struggle with my wife Jean to get past her aversion to aging white wines, Riesling and Chablis among them.

FWIW, I think that we're in complete agreement with each other (and David in Switzerland) about most CalCabs and Zins, few of which I will age any more. I'm positively oenogerontiphilic about the Chateauneufs I own, though, so perhaps we part company there.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Actually Mark, we're not that far off (I love older CNdP). Over the years (especially the last 2 or 3) I have had any number of wines that were just past what I would consider their best. German Riesling Kabinett, Savennieres, Muscadet, Alsatian Riesling and Pinot Gris, Crozes-Hermitage, St. Joseph and village Burgundies are most of the areas where I have encountered the issue. In some cases storage and/or corks are likely to blame, but too many times a "marginal" (by which I mean a good but not great producer) producer's wines have just failed to measure up. Things like Prum, Donnhoff, Baumard, Huet, Weinbach, Trimbach, Johann Sebastian Bach (just to make sure you are reading), Mugneret-Gibourg, etc have never been the problem. Where I think I (and other wine geeks) are perhaps stretching the capabilities of the wines is with wines from Toni Jost, Kerpen, Closel, Burgaud (yep), Jaboulet, Jadot/Drouhin (at the village level - premier and grand crus have been magical) and Kreydenweiss to name a starting list.

Certainly there are times when any producer's wines will step up and surprise, but I'm not convinced it's worth the gamble.

Ah, Johnny Brook! Good stuff, and ages beautifully, I agree. Even after several centuries it is as fresh as a daisy.

Ah, Johnny Brook! Good stuff, and ages beautifully, I agree. Even after several centuries it is as fresh as a daisy.

I feel as if his fugues have begun to show signs of oxidation, perhaps the result of using antiquated notation

Mark Lipton

David, you're just being far too reasonable. Perhaps we should both change our names to Joe and engage in an Internet smackdown?

Joe Lipton

Mark and David:

Just curious-do you feel seven years is "too old" for California Cabs? I'm not talking the Mayacamas or Heitz but midline boutique bottlers. I am really enjoying the 2001 California Cabs I have been drinking lately. I don't tend to buy giant alcoholic fruit bombs, but...

I honestly don't like many new release California Cabs. I find the 2005s currently dominating the market to be somewhat harsh. So...is five to ten years a decent short/mid term aging period ok to your palates?

[David M. Bueker]

Brian - I don't have enough experience with new-wave Cal Cab to answer that question. I do enjoy Pride Cabs with some age on them, but I am in the minority.

I can tell you that I prefer Insignia and Shafer Hillside in their youth. I prefer them even more because I am not the one paying for them.

Mark and David:

Just curious-do you feel seven years is "too old" for California Cabs? I'm not talking the Mayacamas or Heitz but midline boutique bottlers. I am really enjoying the 2001 California Cabs I have been drinking lately. I don't tend to buy giant alcoholic fruit bombs, but...

I honestly don't like many new release California Cabs. I find the 2005s currently dominating the market to be somewhat harsh. So...is five to ten years a decent short/mid term aging period ok to your palates?

Brian,
I cut my enological teeth on Cabs from the late '70s/early '80s, and many of those took 10 years to reach maturity and lasted for quite a while thereafter. My comment was more directed toward the modern style of CalCab, and I don't buy it so don't know how well it ages, but... I suspect that many of the wines I've tried will either fall apart or will simply fade rather than mature in the classic sense. That being said, there are still a fair number of wines that'll age well IMO: Corison, Mayacamas, Ridge, Dunn and Clos du Val for starters. Echoing David's comment, I'm less sure about some other producers such as Montelena and Phelps. Even my Chateau Montelenas from the late '70s and early '80s never really evolved so much as just endured. For those sort of wines, I'd suggest drinking them as soon as the tannins soften, as the fruit will just be fresher than what you'll get later on. Even then, though, that probably means 3-5 years in the cellar, but to me that ain't really "aging."

Mark Lipton