Medieval grape variety - "bromest"

Hi, all. I'm brand new to this forum and hope this email fits with your ethos. I'm a postgraduate student of medieval history and I'm studying some inquisitorial texts from southern France in the early fourteenth century. I've come across loads of references to wine, as you might expect, but also to a variety of grape called "bromest." The text is in Latin but I think this may be an Occitan word, as I cannot find it in my dictionnaries or online. Do any of you have any information on this type of grape - I would be very grateful for any pointers you can give me!

With many thanks and regards,
Jane

[James Roscoe]

Jane, welcome to the best site on the planet to discuss wine. This is an eclectic group and I suspect you will get some answers. Your work sounds interesting, Good luck!

Jane, Hello and Welcome.....


A fine puzzle you have posed, for I find no reference at all to a grape known as "bomest". Perhaps you could give us the word in context as it may refer not so much to a grape but as to something in connection with the vineyard or the winemaking process.

I also wonder if the term does not in some way relate to Bacchus, whose surname was said to be Bromius.



Thanks
Rogov

It might just be Old French for "a bunch of grapes".

Salute

It might just be Old French for "a bunch of grapes".

Jane, welcome! "A large bunch of grapes" (grosse grape de raisins) is indeed what François Lacombe defines it as in his Dictionnaire du vieux langage françois. But did you think from the context that it might be a reference to a particular grape variety instead of just generically a big bunch of grapes?

Many thanks indeed for the warm welcome! This is a really interesting site!

As suggested, here is an extract in its context:

“Item dixit et confessa fuit quod, quadam tempore post predicta quasi per XV dies vel circa, ut sibi videtur de tempore, predicta Esclarmonda misit dictis hereticis per ipsam que loquitur unam canam plenam vino et unum panem dictum tonhol, item alia vice racemos vocatos bromests quos tradidit ipsi que loquitur in quadam scutella picta...”

And here is my rather shaky translation: "Item. She said and confessed that some time after these events, it seemed to her about fifteen days afterwards or thereabouts, the said Esclarmonde sent to the said heretics, through the witness, a basket [?] full of wine and bread called tonhol. Item, another time, [she sent to the heretics] some grapes called bromests, via the witness, which she presented in a certain painted bowl..."

I have come across only a very few other references to "bromests" in other documents which are more closely wine-related, but I'm afraid I do not have my notes with me, so I hope this is enough.

I think because the documents specifies that the grapes are "called bromests," this indicates a particular type of grape rather than being a more generic description of grapes. The inquisitors are normally quite specific in their wording and where grapes are referred to elsewhere, they are not described in this way but just as "grapes."

Thanks again for all your comments!

With best wishes
Jane

A provocative puzzler, Jane.

Given the time period, location and context, this must be the Inquisition of the Albigensian Heresy. Is this text from a specific area, since Occitan was spoken throughout a rather large stretch of (what is now) Southern France, Spain and Italy, it might help to know the precise area.

Given your translation, it makes it even more difficult to deduce what grape variety is referred to. The inquisitors clearly refer to the first incidence as Esclarmonde sending wine (vino), whereas the second time she sent a type of grape, not wine. That might differentiate the bromests from wine grapes to table grapes. So we might be looking at the Medieval version of Red Tokay Seedless.

And to make it even more puzzling, that time period was one of tremendous language transition, and we're dealing with (from what I can see and figure out) a rather intriguing mixture of liturgical Latin (i.e, not spoken or written except by clerics, and following very formal precepts), Old French transitioning to newer French, and Occitan/Catala. "Bromests" could be a very local name, one that did not get carried over to survive in either Occitan or French.

Hey, we have a resident philologist/bookseller/wine merchant/Arabist from Finland (Otto Nieminen) who probably can't resist this topic, so I expect to see him chime in soon.

Many thanks, all.

You're right about the context, Hoke! The extract is taken from the inquisitorial register of Geoffroi d'Ablis, who was looking into heresy in the County of Foix in 1308-9 (this particular witness was from Tarascon). I also think you're spot on about the language implications and the possibility that this might be a local word. But who knows?! Any other views welcome!

Unfortunately I never got around to studying Latin, but could the phrase simply be appositive where bromests is explained in Latin?

Hi, Otto. Am I right in thinking that your suggestion might read as follows:

"Item. She said and confessed that some time after these events... [she sent to the heretics] some grapes, called a bunch of grapes..." ?

Although an awkward construction, and one that does not appear to be typical for the scribes in this register, it might explain why no one has heard of a particular grape called bromest! Unless anyone has any other suggestions, I will talk to a Latin specialist to see if this is likely.

Thank you so much, Otto, and to everyone else for all your help. I really appreciate it. And I'm delighted to have joined such a lively and interesting discussion group on one of my favourite things - wine!

With best wishes,
Jane

Welcome here, Jane, and welcome back with other questions regarding all things vinous! (Sorry, I fail to be able to help you with this one... )

Cheers,
Anders

Hi, Otto. Am I right in thinking that your suggestion might read as follows:

"Item. She said and confessed that some time after these events... [she sent to the heretics] some grapes, called a bunch of grapes..." ?

Rather: "some grapes, called bromests", but yes that idea was what I was after. I would love to hear what the Latin specialists say, so please do post the results here. I may be an Arabist but I am greatly interested in all other languages as well!

Question for Jane (BTW Hi and welcome to WLDG)
Since the scribe used the term “racemos” (and not “uva”) wouldn’t you think he was describing “a bunch of dried grapes (raisins) and not a “bunch of fresh grapes”? Surely in the middle ages people made a distinction between “a bunch of fresh grapes” and a “bunch of dried grapes” and had different words to convey this.

Salute

Welcome Jane! Always nice to have more of my fellow grad students here to commiserate with. And with thought provoking questions like that, you will be most welcome and at home here.

Latin...oh I remember it well! My rowing coach also taught Latin at school so I was always in his good books. I was in the 1st VIII for 3 yrs!
In fact, I stayed an extra year just to row plus take a couple of advanced French level exams.

Hi,

Google Books has some insights from a later period.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bjwQAA ... #PPA273,M1

PHILOLOGICAL SOCIETY, Proceedings, 1882-4.
PUBLISHED FOR THE SOCIETY BY THUBNER & CO., LUDGATE HILL, LONDOX, E.G. AND
KARL I. TRUBNER, STRASBURG. 1855.

The author of the paper went on to greater things later but here's his intro:

VIIL—WORDS CONNECTED WITH THE VINE IN LATIN AND THE NEO-LATIN DIALECTS.1 By H.I.H. Prince Louis-LuciEN Bonaparte.

Professor J. P. Postgate's very interesting paper " On the Latin words for grapes," printed in the first volume of the " Transactions of the Cambridge Philological Society," induces me to extract front my manuscript " Lexicon Com- parativura omnium Linguarum Europaoarum " and present to the Cambridge Philological Society the following list of words connected with the vine and numbering over two hundred, not only in Latin, Low Latin, and in what I consider its fifteen derivative languages, but also ia as many of their dialects, sub-dialects and varieties (about one hundred and forty) as it has been possible for me to collect, either from the most accredited lexicographers, or during my frequent excursions, undertaken with a merely linguistical object, from 1843 to 1869, throughout numerous localities of France, Switzerland, the two Neo-Latin Peninsulas, and their adjacent islands. This list, notwithstanding its being nothing more than a rich comparative collection of words without any etymological comment, yet may be useful, as a supplementary help, to those who might feel inclined to continue or extend Prof. Postgate's etymological researches on this attractive topic.

My object then, at present, is simply comparative; and, in order to obtain the nearest equivalent of each English word or definition in the several languages, dialects, sub- 'lialecte, and varieties, I have not so much depended on bi-lingual lexical works, as on definitions given by the most accredited native authors of classical and standard

1 Reprinted from the Traiuactiom of the Cambridge PMloloyical Society for 1881-1»82.

FLil. Trans. 1882-3-4. 13 national dictionaries, -vocabularies, collections of words, etc. In languages or dialects, however, which I have spoken from childhood, or of which I have a practical knowledge acquired on the spot, I have acted on my own responsibility. Such are Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese, as well as the vulgar Florentine and Roman Italian dialects and the Gallo-Italic Bolognese.

Besides the numerous manuscript collections of words, which I have been able to gather from the countries where Neo-Latin dialects are spoken, the following are the principal printed works which my linguistic library has permitted me to consult, and which I have generally followed as being the best authorities.

Bibliography.

1°. 1. Classical Latin : Forcellini, Facciolati, Furlanctto— Totius Latinitatis Lexicon. Patavii, 1827-41, 5 vol. 4to.; Paaini—Vocabolario italiano-latino. Vocabula Latina et Italica. Venezia, 1841, 2 vol. 4to. ; Valbuena—Diccionario espaiiol-latino. Paris, 1852, 8vo. ; Salvd—Diccionario latino- espanol. Paris, 1846,8vo.; Fonscca (da)—Diccionario portugucz e latino. Lisboa, 1852, fol.; Ferrvim—Magnum Lexicon Latinum et Lusitanum. Parisiis, 1843, 4to.; Noel—Diction- naire franfais-latin. Paris, 1840, 8vo.; Noel—Dictionarium Latino-Gallicum. Paris, 1841, 8vo.; Theil—Dictionnaire Iatin-fraii9ais. Paris, 1853, 8vo.; Ainsicorth — Thesaurus Linguie Latiucc compendiaiius: English-Latin and Latin- English Dictionary, improved and revised by Beatson and Ellis. London, 8vo.; White and Riddle — Latin-English Dictionary. London, 1862, 8vo.

2. Low Latin : Cange (du)—Glossarium mediae et infinite Latinitatis. Parisiis, 1840-50, 7 vol. 4to. ; Diefenbach— Glossarium Latino-Germanicum mediae et infimoc Ectatis. Francofurti ad Hranum, 1857, 4to.

11°. I.italian: Vocalolario degli AccademicidellaCruscu. Firenze, 1729-38, 6 vol. fol.; id. 1843,1 vol. fol.; id. 1863-81,

He credits "bromest" to Old French: 14. Old French : grape, crape, bourgon, bourgeoun, borjoun, bromest. See page 295. [I haven't bothered to clean up the textual conversions.]

A few year later Bonapart still believes it is Old French, but describes the size of the bunch of grapes, a large as opposed to a small bunch.

http://books.google.com/books?id=svkLAA ... dq=bromest

http://books.google.com/books?id=svkLAA ... st#PPA1,M1

An 1808 reference indicates it means a grape used to make raisins:

http://books.google.com/books?id=h5QPAA ... romest&lr=

Glossaire de la langue romane, rédigé d'après les manuscrits de la ...‎ - Page 187
by Jean-Baptiste-Bonaventure de Roquefort - 1808

BROMEST: Grosse grappe de raisin.

In the 1880's the Ministry of Agriculture describes it as a raisin grape from Nice:

Annales de l'institut national agronomique ...‎ - Page 164
by France Ministere de l'agriculture - 1880

... Bromest de Nice. ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=WmQVAA ... romest&lr=


****

A 1767 Lacombe defines it as a large grape for making raisins: BROMEST , grosse grape de raisins

http://books.google.com/books?id=WmQVAA ... romest&lr=

There are a number of other references to the word; I apologize for not cleaning up the results but here's a little to start out on.

Best, Bob

Great Job! Bob (Good to hear from you, hope all is well).

Salute

Thanks, Victor. All is well -- miss the wine a bit, but am reading and writing reviews as a new hobby. It's been great fun going back 40 years to the books "The New York Times" chose as "best" of the year, re-reading my journal, and seeing what I think now. Not all of the pleasures of wine of course, but it will serve, it will serve. Best, Bob

Great Bob, hope you enjoy all the birding stuff I send you!

[James Roscoe]

I knew Bob Ross could dig up info on this conundrum. I love it when he does this!

Hi, there, and many apologies for not coming back sooner but I caught the flu and this is the first time I've checked back in with the forum.

Bob - thank you so much for digging out the information on "bromest" and for clearing up the mystery! If it comes up in my dissertation, I will certainly credit you! Thank you also to everyone else who offered help and encouragement. I really appreciate it.

With best wishes and thanks again.

Jane

ok, i'm almost convinced by bob's philological pursuits. but i can't help the nagging feeling that this just puts the problem back to 'raisen' instead of to 'bromest'. i mean, isn't 'raisen' the current french word for grape. so, is 'grosse grape de raisen' obviously translated into modern english as 'grapes to be made into dried fruit'. it sitll seems like an odd construction that combines a couple of languages that were fighting for supremacy (along with their speakers) at the time.

Fair point, David; I was struck with how Napoleon III struggled with the distinction between a "bunch" and a "raisin". The OED doesn't list "bromest", but released a new draft for "raisin" in December 2008, also showing a bit of struggle even today:

[< Anglo-Norman reisin, reysin, reysyn, reysyng, reisyne, raisine, raysine, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French raisin, resin, Old French and Middle French roisin, (regional: Flanders and Picardy) rosin, Middle French raysin, rasin, racine, etc., grape, cluster of grapes (c1130), dried grape (first half of the 14th cent.; French raisin) < post-classical Latin racimus (a1310 in a British source) < classical Latin racmus RACEME n. Compare Old Occitan razim (c1200), Catalan raïm (late 13th cent.), Spanish racimo (mid 13th cent. as razimo), Portuguese racimo (14th cent. as rracimo), Italian racemo (14th cent.).
It is uncertain whether the following earlier example should be interpreted as showing the Anglo-Norman or the Middle English word:
1278 in J. T. Fowler Extracts Acct. Rolls Abbey of Durham (1899) II. 486 In..ficubus, Raycinys, et novem lagenis vini.
With forms (rare in English) compare Middle Dutch rosine (13th cent.; Dutch rozijn), Middle Low German rosin, rosine, Middle High German rsne (German Rosine), Old Swedish rusin (Swedish russin), all ultimately < Old French, Middle French rosin, roisin.
The pronunciation as a homophone of reason (i.e. in modern English /riz()n/) is exemplified by puns in Shakespeare; it remained current after the forms fell out of use in standard English, and is still defended by Webster in 1828; it survived longest in U.S. regional usage (southern and south midland), where it is recorded as rare but current in c1960 (Dict. Amer. Regional Eng. s.v. raisin). Sheridan gives /rez()n/ in 1789. Compare:
1807 H. J. PYE Comm. Commentators Shakespear 225 Reason and raisin..are pronounced alike in the age of George the Third, by every person who speaks without affectation. 1893 H. A. SHANDS Peculiarities of Speech in Mississippi 74 Reesins (rîznz). The common pronunciation of raisins by negroes and illiterate whites.]

1. a. A cluster or bunch of grapes. Also: a grape. Freq. in pl. Obs.
In quot. c1300 app. denoting the fruit of an unspecified tree, in a narrative of a supposed incident in the infancy of Christ. (It is possible that the quot. may show RACINE n. instead.)

c1300 Childhood Jesus (Laud) 168 in C. Horstmann Altengl. Legenden (1875) 1st Ser. 8 Ich e comaundi, treo, at ou heonne forthe ward beo Fruyt berinde..And multepliinde at ou beo Of racines at comieth of e. a1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Bodl. 959) (1961) Lev. xix. 10 Ne in y vyneard e reysonys & coornes fallynge doun ou shalt not gedere. ?a1425 (c1400) Mandeville's Trav. (Titus C. 16) (1919) 112 The peper groweth in maner as doth a wylde vyne...And the fruyt erof hangeth in manere as resynges [?a1425 Egerton bobbes of grapes]. 1484 CAXTON tr. Esope IV. i, A foxe..beheld the raysyns that grew vpon a hyghe vyne. 1532 (?a1400) Romaunt Rose 3689 No man..Ne may..of the reysyns have the wyn Tyl grapes be rype. 1568 G. SKEYNE Descr. Pest. 26 Of fructis, feggis, bytter almondis, dry rasingis, sowr apill or peir, orange [etc.]. 1614 W. RALEIGH Hist. World I. I. vii. §8. 121 The fruit of the Vine or Raysin did not grow naturally in that part of Armenia. 1669 J. ROSE Engl. Vineyard (1675) 30 The in..the beginning of June (when the little raisins are of the bigness before mentioned) stop their second joynt above the fruit. 1694 J. ADDISON tr. Virgil Fourth Georgick in Misc. Wks. (1914) 17 And Raisins ripen'd on the Psythian vine. 1795 M. M. tr. J. H. B. de Saint-Pierre Voy. Amasis 131 He showed me a single raisin of the grape vine [French Il me montra une grappe de raisin.].
b. A grapevine producing grapes for drying. Cf. raisin grape n. at Compounds 1a. Obs. rare 1.

1573 T. TUSSER Fiue Hundreth Points Good Husb. (new ed.) f. 32, Of trees and fruites to be set or remoued..20 Respis 21 Reisons.
2. A grape partially dried in sunlight or by artificial means, esp. used as an ingredient in cooking or in the production of wine. See also CURRANT n. 1, and raisins of Corauntz at CURRANT n. 1a.
golden, Malaga, muscatel raisin, etc.: see at first element.

1302-3 in F. R. Chapman Sacrist Rolls Ely (1907) II. 17, ij fraellis de fyges et Reysingis. c1330 (?c1300) Reinbrun (Auch.) in J. Zupitza Guy of Warwick (1891) 632 ai broute..Fykes, reisyn, dates. a1425 (1399) Forme of Cury 83 in C. B. Hieatt & S. Butler Curye on Inglysch (1985) 120 For to make rys alkere, tak figys & reysons, & do awey e kernelis. a1500 (1422) J. YONGE tr. Secreta Secret. (Rawl.) (1898) 245 Vse in this tymes..fygis, datis, and reysyns. 1596 J. SMYTHE in Lett. Lit. Men (Camden) 90 To suppe..with bread and reysins. 1673 Leith Customs 6, 225 pound reisons, £1 7 s.
a1400 in T. Wright & J. O. Halliwell Reliquiæ Antiquæ (1845) I. 51 Tak a fatte katte..and the fatte of a bare, and resynes. c1450 in T. Wright & R. P. Wülcker Anglo-Saxon & Old Eng. Vocab. (1884) I. 621/8 Vuapassa, resonn. 1544 in R. G. Marsden Sel. Pleas Admiralty (1894) I. 127 Venturyn..ladyth ij butts saying therein to be reasens of Damask. 1577 B. GOOGE tr. C. Heresbach Foure Bks. Husb. IV. f. 187, Perfume them with Galbanum, Reazins, or olde strigges of Grapes. 1612 J. SMITH Descr. Virginia 18 France in like manner, for Wine, Canvas, and Salt, Spaine asmuch for Iron, Steele, Figges, Reasons, and Sackes. 1645 J. HOWELL Epistolæ Ho-elianæ VI. xlvii. 71 With Figs and Reasons allur'd little children. 1687 in R. Renwick Extracts Rec. Stirling (1889) II. 329 Ane pund reasines. 1789 N. WEBSTER Diss. Eng. Lang. ii. 116 Reesin for raisin is very prevalent in two or three principal towns in America. 1899 Harper's Mag. Feb. 498/2 Ef you'll stick one of 'em on a piece o' scalloped reesin-box paper.
?a1425 tr. Guy de Chauliac Grande Chirurgie (N.Y. Acad. Med.) f. 26v, Emplaster of Auicen of ficz & rasenez & nuttes & barly mele coct with wyne war gode to mature & to bruste. c1429 Mirour Mans Saluacioune (1986) l. 1785 Figes, razines and nuttes and apples. a1500 (?a1425) tr. Secreta Secret. (Lamb.) 77 Seuyn dragmes of pressyd rasynges. 1536 Accts. St. John's Hosp., Canterbury (MS), Payd for a pound of Rasens iijd. 1551 W. TURNER Herball (1568) II. 144 The frayles..that figges and rasines are carried better in. 1603 Philotus xxiii. sig. B2, Ane cup or twa with Muscadall, Sum vther licht thing thairwithall, For Rasins or for Capers call. 1689 in G. Lorimer St. Cuthbert's Facing p. 112 Razines. ?1800 Defoe's Life Robinson Crusoe (new ed.) 120 My yearly labour of planting my barley and rice, and curing my rasins.
?a1425 MS Hunterian 95 f. 163v, Take..drie figes, raysinges wiouten stones. a1450-1509 (?a1300) Richard Coer de Lyon (A-version) 1557 Off ffroyt here is gret plente Ffyggys and raysyns..And notes. a1500 (?a1425) tr. Secreta Secret. (Lamb.) 74 It nedys at a man vse yn at seysoun..lambren, old wyn, and swete raysyns. 1539 T. ELYOT Castel of Helthe (new ed.) 20, Raysons do make the stomake firme and strong. 1631 B. JONSON Divell is an Asse II. i. 98 in Wks. II, Is not that strange, Sr, to make wine of raisins? 1651 BP. J. TAYLOR Serm. for Year I. vii. 81 A man is..so exposed to calamity, that a raisin is able to kill him. 1703 London Gaz. No. 3971/4, Their Cargoes, consisting of..Brandys, Prunes, Raisons. a1774 A. TUCKER Light of Nature Pursued (1777) III. IV. xxxviii. 504 Some, like children to whom you give a pill wrapped up in a raisin, will suck the plumb and spit out the medicine. 1841 E. W. LANE tr. Thousand & One Nights I. 123 A sweet drink composed of water with raisins. 1886 H. D. BROWN Two College Girls 224 Good rich frosting, too, and plenty of raisins in the cake. 1921 Amer. Woman Jan. 23/2 Place a nice plump raisin in the center of each cooky. 1995 Daily Mail 2 Jan. 50/4 Instead of a chocolate bar, eat some super-sweet dried figs or raisins.
a1450 in T. Austin Two 15th-cent. Cookery-bks. (1888) 30 A Potage of Roysons.

***

I'm inclined to go with the French Ag Department and leave it at that; the French spend a great deal of time with issues like this as I learned in trying to get at the Shiraz/Syrah etc. usages, only to learn that there had been a major effort in France with learned disputations and apparently some conclusive results, but nothing published so far in either French or English -- at least that I've been able to uncover. (My source for the major French study and the unpublished claim is Gerald Asher, a guy far above my pay scale as a wine writer or researcher.)

Best, Bob

Best, Bob

thanks, bob. so in their some connection to 'rancio' or is that a different origin?