Ed Draves wrote:Can a product containing alcohol in it be legally labeled as such? Perhaps she meant "sulfite free"?
Dave Erickson wrote:We sell Frey Organic White which is labeled "no detectable sulfites." Which bugs me no end, since if sulfites are not detectable, they must have been removed, which in turn makes me wonder how the wine can possibly be labeled "organic" since it is no longer in its original state.
Isaac wrote:Robin, I might be mistaken, but I think Dave's objection is to "No detectable sulfites", not "No sulfites added". Since, as you say, sulfites are natural, then it follows that, if sulfites are undetectable, then the naturally occurring sulfites have to have been removed.
Bob Ross wrote:Robin, I've read that in Australia at least there are "preservative free" wines where fermentation is stopped by pasteurization. Any insights?
Thomas wrote:Incidentally, I believe "organic" on a label applies to the vineyard not to the wine, but these things get so confused I could be wrong about that by five minutes past this post.
Dave Erickson wrote:I didn't mean to make such a big deal about this
but I'm a little surprised that you all seem ready to be so accommodating to Frey. What they're doing may not be illegal, but to my mind it sure isn't right.
since sulfites naturally occur in winemaking, it seems logical to conclude that sulfites were removed.
And, if sulfites were removed, then the wine has been manipulated, which to my thinking makes "organic" less than accurate, also.
Dave Erickson wrote:I know what "organic" means, and I also know what it implies. I still think it's sleazy.
Regarding the removal of sulfites: This will require research on my part. I am deeply skeptical that Frey somehow manages to keep sulfites below a "detectable" level. If there were not some manipulation going on, wouldn't every quality winemaker (i.e., winemaker that doesn't add sulfites) be able to claim "no detectable sulfites"??
Anybody got a pipeline into Frey?
Dave Erickson wrote:Regarding the removal of sulfites: This will require research on my part. I am deeply skeptical that Frey somehow manages to keep sulfites below a "detectable" level. If there were not some manipulation going on, wouldn't every quality winemaker (i.e., winemaker that doesn't add sulfites) be able to claim "no detectable sulfites"??
Anybody got a pipeline into Frey?
Thomas wrote:No pipeline into Frey Dave, but my suspicion is that they are using a loophole, and yes, it is sleazy marketing to the unsuspecting who gladly take the word of mouth approach to information--wine and food labeling don't h\elp either, since few consumers know the regulations and the myriad ways to bs us.
If a producer has not added sulfites why in the name of Dionysus would he go to whatever trouble it might be to remove the minuscule levels of sulfites that remain after fermentation. I am not even sure sulfites can be removed. But I've been out of that loop for a few years; maybe someone else knows.
There are two types of sulfites in wine, the bound and the free. As you add SO2, some of it binds, a portion of it remains free. That issue alone is confusing to those who cite the regs--is the govt warning bar 10ppm bound or is it 10ppm free? Perhaps the "no detectable" is playing on a loophole there.
It is the free SO2 (airborne) that makes asthmatics react, and I have no idea how that would be removed other than letting the SO2 dissipate by way of oxygenation, which would really be stupid. And, the levels in wine after fermentation generally wouldn't even register on an asthmatic.
As for the pasteurization, Bob, I don't think that has anything to do with slowing oxidation. While sulfites help in arresting microbial activity, their real purpose is to slow down oxidation and they do their work dependent on the wine's pH (and relative acidity).
Let me redo the pasteurization portion of the post--what I meant was simply that SO2 is better at the job because it does not cook the wine and, in my opinion, ruin the stuff.
Thomas wrote:Ok, it's legit, but "no detectable" doesn't mean "no sulfites."
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