WTN: Muscadet Sevre Et Maine Sur Lie 2006 and a question

Grand Fief De La Cormeraie

Lovely light golden color in the glass.

Spicy nose, with lemon and grapefruit.

Mouthfilling, rich and juicy grapefruit and lemon, moderate weight, slightly creamy, good tangy acidity, peppery, minerally, lightly honeyed, becoming edgier, leaner and more intense with time.

Mouthwatering , peppery citrusy-lemon finsh.

A steal at $13.95 (Canadian).

Now, here's a question. I know that, as a rule, Muscadet is not meant for aging, but I noticed that this wine's back label suggests that it is capable of aging. I suppose it all depends on how one defines the term "aging", but does Muscadet benefit from aging?

but does Muscadet benefit from aging?

There have been a number of back and forths on this recently. They may or may not be easy to identify with the search function because they are probably embedded in other threads.

But, the short answer is: 'it depends who you ask'.

I don't think anyone would dispute that some of the top Muscadet bottlings can be a little tight when released and benefit from a couple of years in bottle to integrate. Then there are those of us who feel that certain top cuvees can last for several decades or longer, becoming richer, nutty, and aging in a somewhat Chablis-like trajectory. Others claim that they merely survive and don't develop and never gain sufficient complexity to warrant the hassle.

[David M. Bueker]

Then there are those of us who feel that certain top cuvees can last for several decades or longer, becoming richer, nutty, and aging in a somewhat Chablis-like trajectory.

Why would you want that? Why not just drink Chablis? This is what I do not get about aging Muscadet; the idea that it becomes more like something else.

Why would you want that? Why not just drink Chablis? This is what I do not get about aging Muscadet; the idea that it becomes more like something else.

Two answers.

1)Great Muscadet is cheaper than good Chablis.

2)I wrote 'somewhat Chablis-like' because I actually don't think Muscadet is a replacement for Chablis. It is something different and is its own thing. But, for people who are not familiar with aged Muscadet mentioning aged Chablis helps give them an idea of the general direction.

Then there are those of us who feel that certain top cuvees can last for several decades or longer, becoming richer, nutty, and aging in a somewhat Chablis-like trajectory.

Why would you want that? Why not just drink Chablis? This is what I do not get about aging Muscadet; the idea that it becomes more like something else.

Hmmm..."lipstick-on-a-pig"?

It's the same thrill people get from having petite sirah turn into claret with age.

Why would you want that? Why not just drink Chablis? This is what I do not get about aging Muscadet; the idea that it becomes more like something else.

Two answers.

1)Great Muscadet is cheaper than good Chablis.

Exactly. And I think this is where smart people are putting their cellar money. Besides rieslings and certain chenin blancs, where else can one pay (well, used to be) 10-bucks to have aged whites linger and become, if not complex, at least changed and ready for popping over a 10-12 year horizon (and quite possibly longer, depending on vintage and producer, and real cork).

does muscadet age? of course; all wines age. does that improve or even equal the fresh version? NOOOOOOOOO!
and the same goes for Chablis.

and the same goes for Chablis.

What white wine do you think gets better and more interesting with age?

[David M. Bueker]

What white wine do you think gets better and more interesting with age?

Riesling!

What white wine do you think gets better and more interesting with age?

Riesling!

Well, yes of course!

But I was wondering about David C's preferences.

What white wine do you think gets better and more interesting with age?

Riesling!

Hey Rieslingboy, we already know where you stand!

I'd be curious to know David C's best whites for aging too.

keeping in mind that no type or variety uniformly improves with age, i'm assuming the question is which ones CAN.

so, yes, riesling. and white burgundy and many sweeter wines including loire and sauternes. champagne. there is also of course a whole category of wines that change and become 'differently good' while perhaps not improving. as an aside, i don't necessarily call the changes that take place the first 6 months to a year after bottling, 'aging' - though of course it is. and i'm not sure how many years worth of changes i would need before i called it 'aged'. two or three at least i guess.

Everyone's tastes vary, of course. Bruce, wish this had come up before you were in NY, would have happily brought aged Muscadet to the offline.
I'll say for me that '95 and '88 Pepiere Briords, and '89, '90, and '95 Luneau Papin L d'Or were wines I have been VERY happy to drink. A look at CT seems to indicate I'm not alone (I don't put a lot of faith in CT reviews from unknowns, but a substantial portion of these notes came from people with my "favorite taster" status, like Cliff/Frogman, Marc D, etc. I also see superpositive reviews from John Gilman on them.
I don't know the answer to aging with the Grand Fief De La Cormeraie, never heard of before. But I cellar Briords and L d'Or with plenty of confidence.
And the idea that Chablis (Raveneau, R & V Dauvissat, Droin, etc) doesn't benefit from age is just crazy talk.

Of course, one wouldn't age basic Muscadet or Chablis.

Bruce, wish this had come up before you were in NY, would have happily brought aged Muscadet to the offline.

Well, get aging, we might be down again in a year or two!!

does muscadet age? of course; all wines age. does that improve or even equal the fresh version? NOOOOOOOOO!
and the same goes for Chablis.

David,
I am frankly shocked at this response of yours. Grand Cru and even Premier Cru Chablis aren't even very approachable in their youth oftentimes and almost REQUIRE bottle aging to open up and blossom. De gustibus and all that, but your categorical statement sure took me by surprise, as I rarely disagree with your opinions. As for Muscadet, I've had the pleasure of drinking a superb '90 Luneau-Papin L d'Or with Rahsaan in London, and I've also had the rerelease of the '97 L d'Or. Both were remarkably fresh and vital wines, with no hint of oxidation and loads of fruit. In all of the above cases, the changes wrought by bottle aging are a taming of the high acidity of youth and a growing roundness and openness of the fruit.

Coincidentally, I also had a Grand Fief de la Cormeraie (the '05) tonight in Paris with my dinner. Not a bad wine at all, though probably not in the same league with Marc Ollivier and Pierre Luneau. If I ever can catch up, I'll post notes.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Grand Cru and even Premier Cru Chablis aren't even very approachable in their youth oftentimes and almost REQUIRE bottle aging to open up and blossom.

De gustibus indeed.

Especially these days, aging Chablis to its supposed apogee is fraught with danger.

David C,

Chablis in its best vintages ages spectacularly well, if you like that style of wine; apparently you do not. I have a dozen examples from just 1996 which are still drinking well if not improving. I don't see much parallel with most examples of Muscadet I've had.

Caveats: Muscadet hasn't bitten me. I've never had a muscadet over five years old. I've never had a muscadet I'd call great or especially memorable. It's not my thing. My smart money goes exactly where it needs to.

[David M. Bueker]

I've never had a muscadet I'd call great or especially memorable. It's not my thing.

And I thought I was braving the wrath of the geek gods...

C`on David, you are thick skinned!

Is this my 4999 post? Hagh, 5,000...yippee.

Diggin` around, found this Muscadet report on Jim Budd`s excellent blog.
Really not very good news.

Due to the severe frost in early April the volume of the 2008 vintage is well below normal. Overall the estimate is that the frost destroyed 50% of the crop. However, this varies from sector to sector. “We lost between 20%-70% of the crop depending on the parcel,” said Monique Luneau of Domaine Luneau-Papin, Le Landreau in the Muscadet de Sèvre-et-Maine. “Overall we will make 40% of normal,” added Pierre. Pierre says that Joseph Landron has only made 12 hl/ha. Across in the Muscadet Côtes de Grandlieu Jérome Choblet of Domaine des Herbauges says: “Before we started picking we had hoped for 25 hl/ha but now we have started we will be lucky to get 20 hl/ha. With around 130 ha – 105 of Melon – Herbauges is the largest producer in the Grandlieu appellation.

I think Tim might have some other notes? He is always on top of things from his great local position!

Bob,

I can't help much with the 2008 vintage or with old Muscadet from personal experience. I had L d'Or of Luneau-Papin once from RSJ in London and thought it very good having taken on a gentle creaminess unsuspected in young Muscadet.

Here are two loose translations from French reference books about L.

From RVF's "Les Meilleurs Vins de France 2008"

L d'or is a great and expressive cuvée from granitic soil which evolves towards petrol notes like Rhine rieslings......Le Muscadet-de-Sèvre-et-Maine sur lie 1982 opens out with the fragrances of iodine and candied lemon with a medium powered palate which is subtle with a creamy and spicy texture. With the 1976, it is Pierre Luneau's masterpiece.

From Le Grand Guide 2008 by Bettane and Desseauve

L d'Or - a vertical from 2006 back to 1976 allows one to get to grips with these great age-worthy Muscadets. Today the 97, 99 and 00 are real treats. If you come across the 1976, don't hesitate!

Attention all Musky Hounds....this is for you!!

http://www.wineanorak.com/pepiere.htm

David C,

Chablis in its best vintages ages spectacularly well, if you like that style of wine; apparently you do not. I have a dozen examples from just 1996 which are still drinking well if not improving. I don't see much parallel with most examples of Muscadet I've had.

Caveats: Muscadet hasn't bitten me. I've never had a muscadet over five years old. I've never had a muscadet I'd call great or especially memorable. It's not my thing. My smart money goes exactly where it needs to.

Forget the limitation "in its best vintages"; Chablis is my favorite white-wine ager in most vintages.
To my palette, aged Chablis tastes precisely like honey crossed with oysters on the half-shell; it gains an almost glutamate-like savoriness. Nothing else is quite like Chablis when it's 5-10 years old. I just finished off the last of my basic 1998 La Chablisenne 1ers, one of my first multi-bottle wine purchases, that aged wonderfully from 2002 to 2007 and were worth every penny of the high-teens price I paid back in '02.

Now, here's a question. I know that, as a rule, Muscadet is not meant for aging, but I noticed that this wine's back label suggests that it is capable of aging. I suppose it all depends on how one defines the term "aging", but does Muscadet benefit from aging?

Bruce, I would not keep these wines for 4-6 years, but 2-3 and I see a vast improvement. They honestly do seem to grow and improve. I am drinking some 2006 right now that are in fact better than when released. I would have to go downstairs to see exactly what they are, but if you wish I can get back to you on that.