Zork closure

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Zork closure

Postby Bill Spencer » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:46 pm

%^)

Anybody out there familiar with this closure ? Will it stand up to longer term cellaring ?

Thanks in advance !

Clink !

%^)
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Napa is for auto parts, Paso is for wine !

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Re: Zork closure

Postby Patchen (Chicago) » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:59 pm

You cannot clink that.
>
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Re: Zork closure

Postby David M. Bueker » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:09 pm

>
You are in a maze of twisty passages all alike
>
You will likely be eaten by a grue
There behind the glass lies a real blade of grass. Be careful as you pass. Move along. Move along.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Bill Buitenhuys » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:40 pm

Oval Office
You are standing inside a White House, having just been elected to the presidency of the United States. You knew Scalia would pull through for you.

There is a large desk here, along with a few chairs and couches. The presidential seal is in the middle of the room and there is a full-length mirror upon the wall.

What do you want to do now?

> INVADE IRAQ
You are not able to do that, yet.

> LOOK MIRROR
Self-reflection is not your strong suit.

> EXAMINE CHAIRS
They are two several chairs arranged around the center of the room, along with two couches. Under one couch you find Clinton's shoes.

> FILL SHOES
You are unable to fill Clinton's shoes.

> EXAMINE DESK
It is a large, oak desk, with several drawers.

In one drawer you find a bag of pretzels.

> EAT PRETZEL.
I don't think the pretzel would agree with you.

> INVADE IRAQ
You are not able to do that, yet.

> INVADE IRAQ
You are not able to do that, yet.

> GO RIGHT
Far-Right
You are on the far right of the political spectrum.
Jesse Helms is here.
John Ashcroft is here.


for more of this pretty funny Zork-Bushism..click here
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Randy Buckner » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:51 am

You are unable to fill Clinton's shoes


You did mean condom....
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Bob Ross » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:21 am

Back to the original closure device which was apparently the source of your ques tion (much as I enjoyed Randy's sideroad in the closet off the Oval Office), there's an odd bit of mystery involved with the Zork closure for wine.

You can get a ton of info, including a full description of various studies at http://www.zork.com.au/

It appears on the substantive question you ask there are no studies older than 18 months. And, if you believe that there were patent issues involved for the past three years, you would have to wonder a bit about whether a company would actually invest in studies which not only potentially violated a patent but more to the point, might not be useable if the patent position prevent it from using the studies as part of a marketing effort.

Especially since the device was changed after the studies were completed.

But I'm sure I'm just too cyncial tonight.

Regards, Bob
Last edited by Bob Ross on Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Dave Erickson » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:10 am

I watched the video, and it does indeed make a lovely "pop." Whether this is worth the investment in retrofitting bottling lines (it looks simple in the brochure, but then it would, wouldn't it...) is something for wine marketing geniuses to decide. It would be instructive to compare costs (at like volumes) with the Stelvin system.

As far as long-term effectiveness, I assume the Zork folks would take their cues from the likes of SupremeCorq, and market to producers who expect their products to be open within a year or two.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Peter May » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:41 pm

The answer has to be 'who knows'?

This stupid device was being demoed at LIWSF year before last. They had charts showing oxygen transmission & 'accelerated aging' experiments etc but old cynic that I am, my opinion is 'come back in 10/20 years and lets see the results then'.

The only point of this ridiculous closure is to make a 'pop' when opened.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby TimMc » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:19 pm

As long as it isn't that insipid screw cap, I'm OK with it 8)
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Re: Zork closure

Postby David M. Bueker » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:25 pm

TimMc wrote:As long as it isn't that insipid screw cap, I'm OK with it 8)


What have you got against screw caps?
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Re: Zork closure

Postby TimMc » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:40 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:
TimMc wrote:As long as it isn't that insipid screw cap, I'm OK with it 8)


What have you got against screw caps?


Aesthetics, mostly.

However, I figure that whole wine taint issue is a bit overblown, IMHO. One bottle in six cases of wine or 1-2% is really nothing to get all worked up about, as I see it.

Where I live, the local farmers, growers and milk producers would be jumping with glee if that was the worst case scenario for product loss due to spoilage. I promise you.

Personally, I see it as an economical delivery system for cheaper wines, because the high end vintages will remain corked. Besides, the marketplace has not seen this mass change over to screw caps and more than likely because of the fact serious collectors and/or wine lovers won't plunk down the cash for screw capped wines.


Aesthetics do matter.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby David M. Bueker » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:48 pm

TimMc wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:
TimMc wrote:As long as it isn't that insipid screw cap, I'm OK with it 8)


What have you got against screw caps?


Aesthetics, mostly.

However, I figure that whole wine taint issue is a bit overblown, IMHO. One bottle in six cases of wine or 1-2% is really nothing to get all worked up about, as I see it...

Aesthetics do matter.


Personal experience is htat nearly 7% of the wines I open are corked, not 1-2%, so it's pretty much a bottle out of every case.

Aesthetics are a byproduct of historical use of tree bark. A horse drawn carriage is aesthically lovely, but it won't get you anywhere fast.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Mark Lipton » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:50 pm

TimMc wrote:However, I figure that whole wine taint issue is a bit overblown, IMHO. One bottle in six cases of wine or 1-2% is really nothing to get all worked up about, as I see it.


Then you must not be very TCA-sensitive. Over the past 5 years, I have averaged about 10% loss due to obviously corked wines with who knows how much more due to "fruit scalping" and other low-level TCA problems.

Personally, I see it as an economical delivery system for cheaper wines, becuase the high end vintages will remain corked. Besides, the marketplace has not seen this mass change over to screw caps and more than likely because of the fact serious collectors and/or wine lovers won't plunk down the cash for screw capped wines.


The move to screwcaps is actually more expensive for many because of the need to modify the bottling lines. There already has been a mass change to screwcaps, just not in the US (yet). NZ has made a wholesale change and Oz is headed that direction, too. And, if I may be considered a "serious" collector (true, I'm rarely serious), I'll jump at the chance to buy vins de garde under screwcap. Do you know how pissed off I get when I open a 20-year old Bordeaux and all I can smell is TCA? I doubt that I'm alone in this frustration.


Aesthetics do matter.


Yes, and the aesthetics of taste trump all others IMO when it comes to wine. I'll buy the closures that give me the best tasting wine.

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1/72?

Postby Patchen (Chicago) » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:53 pm

Okay, Tim, I'll bite. I recently brought home two cases of wine; three out of the first five bottles I opened were corked. Sure, that was a fluke. But 1 bottle out of 72? Sorry, but my rate is two or three times that, for cork-closed bottles anyway; and around here I think folks tend to report a taint rate of more like 5%. Now, I don't know what an acceptable failure rate is in the rest of the manufacturing world, but if I had that kind of failure rate in my classes, my deans would be yelling at me for grading too hard (and I'd be yelling at the admissions office for sleeping on the job). ;-)

That doesn't mean I think any of the alternative closures going is a perfect solution. But I sure do think it's a real problem!


cheers

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Re: 1/72?

Postby wrcstl » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:10 pm

The Zork looks silly and most likely is not a solution. Regardless I am coming down firmly in the natural cork camp. Putting aesthetics aside and since I age many wines 20 years I am concerned about the screw cap over this length of time. Might have some OZ Riesling studies that say their wines are still very fresh but these wines in general do not add a tremendous amount of complexity like a wine like Bordeaux hopefully does. Secondly is it possible that screw caps do not let wines age? Who knows. I have no problems with wines scheduled for drinking in 1-3 using screw caps but longer IMHO may create probems.

Now for the real problem, natural corks and TCA; all that has to happen is that the cork industry gets off their ass and fixes it. I believe that is currently being done and the approx 5% is going to shortly be well under 1% or less for major cork producers. Nothing against the screw cap sound but once the bacteria is gotten rid of the whole issue goes away and we have a proven long term aging enclosure.
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Re: 1/72?

Postby James Roscoe » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:17 pm

I wondered how long it would take for this thread to degenerate into a cork war. I thought this stuff had been hashed over a billion times. Have at it gentlemen. Remember, Marquesse of Queensberry rules shall apply.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Peter May » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:19 pm

TimMc wrote:
David M. Bueker wrote:
TimMc wrote:As long as it isn't that insipid screw cap, I'm OK with it 8)


What have you got against screw caps?


Aesthetics, mostly.


To my mind, screwcaps win on aesthetics - they look good, are easy to open, and do the job
TimMc wrote:

However, I figure that whole wine taint issue is a bit overblown, IMHO. One bottle in six cases of wine or 1-2% is really nothing to get all worked up about, as I see it.

You're lucky with that rate, but even 1% would be too much for me when there is an alternative.
TimMc wrote:Where I live, the local farmers, growers and milk producers would be jumping with glee if that was the worst case scenario for product loss due to spoilage. I promise you.


Not sure I follow here, but it sounds as if it is the producers suffering the spoilage, wheras with corked wine it is the consumers. What about if 1-2% of all milk was spoiled when the consumer opened it because of its packaging?

TimMc wrote:, because the high end vintages will remain corked.


Well, 5-7% of them anyway :)
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Alan A. » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:37 pm

Peter May wrote:
TimMc wrote:, because the high end vintages will remain corked.


Well, 5-7% of them anyway :)


:lol: :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: Zork closure

Postby TimMc » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:46 pm

I'm sorry...perhaps I wasn't clear. My bad.

My point was that 1-2% of all bottles of wine with a cork enclosure suffer the so-called wine taint. Hence, one bottle in every six cases of wine is affected.

This, of course, would be the average....your mileage may differ. :wink:


If the number is closer to 7% or even 10%, I absolutely guarantee you those same growers and dairymen I spoke of earlier would kiss you full on the lips if that is all they lost due to spoilage every year.

On the consumer end...well, if a carton of milk is spoiled, I think you take it back to the merchant. With a bottle of wine, you can do the same thing...given a reasonable length of time, of course. Right?


As for collectors or bulk/wine cellar buyers....I'm thinking that's the risk you take. Same as buying hog futures or investing in the stock market: There is no guarantee you will realize a profit and sometimes you take a loss. Life happens...even with wine.

Personally, I am not willing to give in to wine investors [so they won't lose a bottle or two of wine] for the "Screee...SNAP" of that insidious screw cap. Ain't gonna happen, Guys.


And guess what....I am in the majority here. Sorry.
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Re: 1/72?

Postby Jeff Grossman/NYC » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:34 am

James Roscoe wrote:Remember, Marquesse of Queensberry rules...


Marquis. (The lady of the house does not encourage fighting.)
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Re: Zork closure

Postby Jeff Grossman/NYC » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:45 am

TimMc wrote:I'm sorry...perhaps I wasn't clear.


Oh, no. Not at all. You were perfectly clear. Just no one here agrees with you.

And then there's the dubious condition of your facts:
- loss due to cork taint is far more than 1-2%
- screwcaps are taking over the low-end wine market (it goes with the de-mystification of wine that is occurring (& needed) in the US)
- I don't want to be kissed full on the lips by a dairy farmer
- wine isn't milk! wine isn't perishable! wine is full of alcohol, which is a preservative! I expect pretty darned near perfect behavior from its containers! (If we can do it for Coke and Pepsi, we can do it for Bugey and Pauillac.)

Your opinions are your own, of course, and you are entitled to them.
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Re: Zork closure

Postby David M. Bueker » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:51 am

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:
TimMc wrote:I'm sorry...perhaps I wasn't clear.


Oh, no. Not at all. You were perfectly clear. Just no one here agrees with you.



:D :D :D
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Re: Zork closure

Postby James Roscoe » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:51 am

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:
TimMc wrote:I'm sorry...perhaps I wasn't clear.


Oh, no. Not at all. You were perfectly clear. Just no one here agrees with you.

And then there's the dubious condition of your facts:
- loss due to cork taint is far more than 1-2%
- screwcaps are taking over the low-end wine market (it goes with the de-mystification of wine that is occurring (& needed) in the US)
- I don't want to be kissed full on the lips by a dairy farmer
- wine isn't milk! wine isn't perishable! wine is full of alcohol, which is a preservative! I expect pretty darned near perfect behavior from its containers! (If we can do it for Coke and Pepsi, we can do it for Bugey and Pauillac.)

Your opinions are your own, of course, and you are entitled to them.

Yes, that's what I'm longing for, the sound of a cork coming out of my Diet Coke. Oh no, what's that musty smell? Damn! My Coke is corked!
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Re: Zork closure

Postby TimMc » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:48 pm

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:
TimMc wrote:I'm sorry...perhaps I wasn't clear.


Oh, no. Not at all. You were perfectly clear. Just no one here agrees with you.

And then there's the dubious condition of your facts:
- loss due to cork taint is far more than 1-2%
- screwcaps are taking over the low-end wine market (it goes with the de-mystification of wine that is occurring (& needed) in the US)
- I don't want to be kissed full on the lips by a dairy farmer
- wine isn't milk! wine isn't perishable! wine is full of alcohol, which is a preservative! I expect pretty darned near perfect behavior from its containers! (If we can do it for Coke and Pepsi, we can do it for Bugey and Pauillac.)

Your opinions are your own, of course, and you are entitled to them.


LOL

:D

I don't blame you for not wanting to be kissed by a dairyman...it's not a pretty picture.

With all due respect, the vast majority of wine drinkers [here or elsewhere] are opposed to screw caps. Serious collectors, specifically. If this were not the case, every store's wine section in America would be filled to capacity with screw capped wine.

[BTW, anything that spoils is considered a perishable...just so ya know]

Secondly, here is an article you might find interesting. It was written in 2002 by Jordan P. Ross and appears on the EnologyInternational.com website.

To wit:

NATURAL CORK, CORKINESS, SYNTHETICS & SCREW CAPS
Jordan P. Ross

[fixed]

Source:[url] http://www.enologyinternational.com/cork/cork.html
Last edited by TimMc on Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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